Hi, First, thank you Carsten and others, for putting this thing together; org-mode is the most useful tool I've run across in a long time. I recently put together a few commands to create source code files from SRC and EXAMPLE blocks in org-mode files. The original idea is to be able to compile examples in my notes without needing to merge them into a separate source file by hand. As I was writing it I realized this is exactly the same tool one needs to turn org-mode into a literate programming tool (see http://www.literateprogramming.com/ ), so I adopted some of the nomenclature. (I tried literate programming a few years ago, and gave up in frustration with the tools. I am tempted to try again with org-mode.) The two user level commands are org-tangle and org-untangle, best explained through example. Running org-tangle in a buffer that looks like this: ---------------------- begin /tmp/test.org --------------------------- * Some file Some text here #+CHUNK file1.sh 1 #+BEGIN_SRC bash echo "line 1" echo "line 2" #+END_SRC more text ** Some subsection #+CHUNK file1.sh 2 #+BEGIN_SRC bash echo "line 5" echo "line 6" #+END_SRC blah blah blah #+CHUNK README.txt 1 #+BEGIN_EXAMPLE text line 1 text line 2 text line 3 #+END_EXAMPLE foo foo bar baz #+CHUNK file1.sh 1.5 #+BEGIN_SRC bash echo "line 3" echo "line 4" #+END_SRC -------------- end /tmp/test.org ---------------- results in the creation of these two files, opened in emacs buffers: ------------- begin /tmp/file1.sh ---------------- # ORGCHUNK /tmp/test.org 1 echo "line 1" echo "line 2" # ORGCHUNK /tmp/test.org 1.5 echo "line 3" echo "line 4" # ORGCHUNK /tmp/test.org 2 echo "line 5" echo "line 6" ------------- end /tmp/file1.sh --------------------- and ------------ begin /tmp/README.txt ------------- text line 1 text line 2 text line 3 ------------ end /tmp/README.txt --------------- If you then edit file1.sh and run org-untangle in the buffer, changes to it will overwrite the literal blocks in the org-mode file from whence they came. Is there any interest in this? My organization's rules for releasing code to open source projects are being revised, but I am likely to be able to do so under a BSD-like license. If there is interest, I will push to try and figure out how to do this, and maybe even see if I can do the assignment of copyright stuff needed for it to get under the main umbrella (although I am not optimistic). (If anyone feels like rewriting it, that would be even better; aside from a fairly straightforward .emacs, this is my first ever lisp code, so it is likely to need cleaning and refactoring.) -Eric -- Eric H. Neilsen, Jr. http://home.fnal.gov/~neilsen
Eric H. Neilsen, Jr. wrote: > Hi, > First, thank you Carsten and others, for putting this thing together; > org-mode is the most useful tool I've run across in a long time. > I recently put together a few commands to create source code files > from SRC and EXAMPLE blocks in org-mode files. The original idea is to > be able to compile examples in my notes without needing to merge them > into a separate source file by hand. As I was writing it I realized > this is exactly the same tool one needs to turn org-mode into a > literate programming tool (see http://www.literateprogramming.com/ ), > so I adopted some of the nomenclature. (I tried literate programming a > few years ago, and gave up in frustration with the tools. I am tempted > to try again with org-mode.) I was just thinking that literate programming and org-mode would go great together. > The two user level commands are org-tangle and org-untangle, best > explained through example. Running org-tangle in a buffer that looks > like this: > ---------------------- begin /tmp/test.org --------------------------- > * Some file > Some text here > #+CHUNK file1.sh 1 I think using numbers to order the chunks is probably not the best idea. When I wrote the one small program I wrote with literate programming, I really liked being able to write pseudocode with the chunks that get substituted. Like this (admittedly poor example): def fib(n): <<find fib_{n - 2}>> <<find fib_{n - 1}>> <<return the sum>> <<find fib_{n - 2}>>= f2 = fib(n - 2) <<find fib_{n - 1}>>= f1 = fib(n - 1) <<return the sum>>= return f2 + f1 > Is there any interest in this? My organization's rules for releasing > code to open source projects are being revised, but I am likely to be > able to do so under a BSD-like license. If there is interest, I will > push to try and figure out how to do this, and maybe even see if I can > do the assignment of copyright stuff needed for it to get under the > main umbrella (although I am not optimistic). If you put it in a git repo somewhere, I will put some time aside for it. Cheers, Chris
Chris, Yes, I am also unhappy with the use of numbering to order chunks, but the traditional LP mechanism of using substitution of named chunks has some major flaws I have not figured out how to address. The basic problem is that it can be used as a mechanism for code reuse, probably will be if it is present. This is not necessary (code reuse like this probably means poor use of the code reuse mechanisms of the programming language in any case), hides the fact that the code is reused from debugging and performance tools that rely on the source code, and makes the task of untangling much harder, and impossible to completely automate. Consider a program in which the same chunk appears twice in the tangled source code. Using a debugger, you find a bug in the chunk. You fix it in the source code, but only in one place. You then find another bug, or even the same bug in a different guise, and fix it differently in the other appearance. What is the untangler supposed to do with the result? Which new version do you want? Do you want the changes merged? Do you actually want both versions, and if so, how does it edit the org-mode document to include them? Yes, I know, from an LP purists point of view, the untangler is an abomination. Unfortunately, few (if any) code development tools (debuggers, performance analyzers, etc.) support debugging or analysis of source code embedded in CWEB, noweb, or org-mode text files. This, to me, is a deal-breaker. With an untangle command, I can write my code in an org-mode file, tangle it and get emacs buffers with all C, headers, makefiles, java, or whatever code in it, use emacs's extensive code development tools (eg the emacs front end to gdb) to build and debug it, and pull the source code back into the org-mode file when the bugs are fixed. In fact, the code development tools do not even need to be embedded in emacs; anything tools can look at a traditional source file becomes useful. There is an additional problem, although one that can be solved by "just doing more work." At present, org-tangle can use the existing org-mode export code to do all necessary weaving. org-mode, in turn, takes advantage of the many independently supported modes for each language to format them properly. If we introduce a new syntax (for substitution) inside the literal blocks, it means that we will need an org-weave that can properly format each language. I am not sure how practical this is; I am certainly not that ambitious. It may be a little while before my itself makes an appearance. Not only do I need to wait for my employer to figure the legal stuff, I have also received enough feedback that I want to address issues better before anyone else is tempted to use the code. -Eric -- Eric H. Neilsen, Jr. http://home.fnal.gov/~neilsen
"Eric H. Neilsen, Jr." <neilsen@fnal.gov> writes: > Is there any interest in this? Yes. It's been a long time I want to use Org for literate programming, I think it's just the right tool to do this. Please send any code we can test! > (If anyone feels like rewriting it, that would be even better; aside > from a fairly straightforward .emacs, this is my first ever lisp code, > so it is likely to need cleaning and refactoring.) I may help if I have some time. -- Bastien
Bastien <bastienguerry@googlemail.com> writes: > "Eric H. Neilsen, Jr." <neilsen@fnal.gov> writes: > >> Is there any interest in this? > > Yes. It's been a long time I want to use Org for literate programming, > I think it's just the right tool to do this. > > Please send any code we can test! > >> (If anyone feels like rewriting it, that would be even better; aside >> from a fairly straightforward .emacs, this is my first ever lisp code, >> so it is likely to need cleaning and refactoring.) > > I may help if I have some time. I have started re-implementing this as part of org-babel [1], please checkout the "tangle" branch [2] of org-babel for source-code and more information. Cheers -- Eric Footnotes: [1] http://github.com/eschulte/org-babel/tree/master [2] http://github.com/eschulte/org-babel/tree/tangle
"Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes: > Bastien <bastienguerry@googlemail.com> writes: > >> "Eric H. Neilsen, Jr." <neilsen@fnal.gov> writes: >> >>> Is there any interest in this? >> >> Yes. It's been a long time I want to use Org for literate programming, >> I think it's just the right tool to do this. >> >> Please send any code we can test! >> >>> (If anyone feels like rewriting it, that would be even better; aside >>> from a fairly straightforward .emacs, this is my first ever lisp code, >>> so it is likely to need cleaning and refactoring.) >> >> I may help if I have some time. > > I have started re-implementing this as part of org-babel [1], please > checkout the "tangle" branch [2] of org-babel for source-code and more > information. > This tangle implementation has now reached an initial level of functionality. It is able to extract blocks from an org-mode file by language and by session (which has a specific meaning in org-babel) and create source-code files. This doesn't yet have support for fine-grained control for inserting into specific locations of source-code files, and I'm not familiar enough with literate programming to know the best way to structure such support. This is now merged into the master branch of org-babel. To give it a try, open the test-tangle.org file in the base of the repo, and run `org-babel-tangle'. Best -- Eric > > Cheers -- Eric > > Footnotes: > [1] http://github.com/eschulte/org-babel/tree/master > > [2] http://github.com/eschulte/org-babel/tree/tangle