From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id eJqzBwTQ3GHKTAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:32:04 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0ItPBATQ3GHcwQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:32:04 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50CD638D44 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2022 01:32:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52254 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n754z-0002ss-3w for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:32:01 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:53248) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n754D-0002sL-F3 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:31:13 -0500 Received: from out5-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.29]:37229) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1n7548-0008WS-JP for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:31:12 -0500 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.46]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262695C007D; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap49 ([10.202.2.99]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:30:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to:cc :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=Qk09z9cC75sfOJom2NJh0LXP27/07l+ 1XqP4jhjyBQA=; b=p+7UARNI3L81XOsFZZeBW8UDLoO0I60vWGbsGGB13CEDKqH wPnChzuKh25Y36ZRX2allt0AUte4Q/0Ix+ukptPdPsq/QKiaaqDn5TAjaudMB95H oedOy4gtajjyJBhkdxscqrUhJPS7n4H2+p/KH8fAA3FGnzBgk/tQRfXdp+wdCljs aZvprKbfnZlLC/rcnuupuseZwWR4z9ESFiIl1+fDT1Oh3af0YBePKoQk+bULB1c1 dX9/+yVGLUJ43KPgb33/hze4NjoPMOy/bTDQ0nCbRDJjQ+9Tro52PEalcHUmpEUj dLTHGswa0u4uq/ravAC0paxZmqsukZAsUi8a7xg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Qk09z9 cC75sfOJom2NJh0LXP27/07l+1XqP4jhjyBQA=; b=BMClJ78cCZAppedi++QT+I 7B2N+u5yuwhIotjuYx96KuwosCUjBqPiZrdmhFIPYCsWPJUYtocs9L/4dvwsDBLx oQCb1MMzvmdAdmnON+RkQZhJJdOvXbuNg8s0XpEBEnsLSt8/jx9kphKhGVwbZASV kp8dcYWsTcQsQO827lPt09Is6ZV20nkF30WnS6pgZudVmhMW6mcF6ws/Tm3039G/ hbQR6M8wzt86Ommw5OsiSUjwDriqZ4P1sRgZgbBQDq1lWrWlZMjGDmIH/gv98NZI YfpiDTL1wP5yhj8y/nl1ehHpk2IrKFjR8f4nzm25AeGAk5eHoLdz3kroYIKMdKIQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvuddrudehvddgvdduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesrgdtreerreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdfurghm uhgvlhcuuegrnhihrgdfuceoshgsrghnhigrsehfrghsthhmrghilhdrtghomheqnecugg ftrfgrthhtvghrnhepjeelgefgvefhieejvedugedvgedtgeefgffhveetheegvdehfedt ueefffelleffnecuffhomhgrihhnpehmsghorhhkrdhplhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiii gvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehssggrnhihrgesfhgrshhtmhgrihhl rdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id DF1FCF60075; Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:30:56 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.5.0-alpha0-4527-g032417b6d6-fm-20220109.002-g032417b6 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <87v8yrxvi5.fsf@mbork.pl> References: <137562d1-e6fe-4a68-b18b-abedef513fbd@www.fastmail.com> <87zgo4xea3.fsf@mbork.pl> <2352934.1641828705@apollo2.minshall.org> <87v8yrxvi5.fsf@mbork.pl> Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:30:36 -0500 From: "Samuel Banya" To: "Marcin Borkowski" Subject: Re: Question Regarding Creating Workflow For Automatic Formulas For Finance Based Org Spreadsheet Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=a3fe9ee0eeea47868419ec3392dfe24b Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.29; envelope-from=sbanya@fastmail.com; helo=out5-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Greg Minshall , Neil Jerram , Charles Berry Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1641861123; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Qk09z9cC75sfOJom2NJh0LXP27/07l+1XqP4jhjyBQA=; b=VxokUsW4elwFHrMM6Wjor2b7zl1pMpim4BXJ5NAk5+acatpy7NXMbTMvafIYdfcS7r5Gir bZ+ff171l1IcHod9PAjWiJ3kRd44+tnDdsW0iqSoq73dDoEcuurZpaIahlx3LylVSlCvj9 tR8uanygZLVUk5oZK/OR9ctDcPOm8FIxGZTG0lc59KGzGXsQ+HiSXzCn0pv23gf3X3p66J i3qTUkEuKKiIOQGnNMGF2v6KBi8ZYhyKUbi2eXa9Z4xGsi43vsaVKNCSFjtb4m9QSM2Rtt dzQsZgGpw7RzaJOFUBlFF2M1gkkRseDM1lQTnl5uSVHGP77At8uiBYCqBy7C/g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1641861123; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PEtVlpCPPEK+fLvHuC40RFWPMsHz9ShN14/rT6k6eLI0iWD5NmHd+w6Xg8GIuDw4+GFBYx sjTccIDF9r0NNPMRa9wzbZpXD5DcCIUOdUVzx6m6ZngSgLj+HEscAXoo/mBN0rfhZuGq0N f7ZqNZSt9QJA/bpVDdA77cuBipkwvwY8uDiCsaInoiYiKDDV6ZnQhy/FVT+V25BuQDbVVP yjGmBaqhDVboTT+Bc1fFoAvF95Lx5PgLCF7xoElTdJiHMi8/iXPdYy9ZLkqvljzmocQKyM CPY57FZNId9tsYp9QObhKUWDP/tUL5TyIetFZy0d+2PCappyKl6Vr6Jv2yBG9A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm1 header.b=p+7UARNI; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=BMClJ78c; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=fastmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.10 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm1 header.b=p+7UARNI; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=BMClJ78c; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=fastmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 50CD638D44 X-Spam-Score: -1.10 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: IK8VjUI13P77 --a3fe9ee0eeea47868419ec3392dfe24b Content-Type: text/plain The double reporting thing still doesn't apply to me. Even if you pay with credit cards, ultimately it comes out of your regular bank account to pay off. To me, its easier to just focus on the single bank account, and obtain the latest .csv from the current week (Last Saturday to current Saturday), and treat the entire list as a list of negative value expenses, and positive income items to keep it super simple. The simpler it is, the better for me, because I honestly hate doing finances, and only do them to make sure I'm ontop of everything as its the last thing I want to do on a given week. Hope that helps give some background, since I don't want to appear to be difficult, but would rather just "keep it in a spreadsheet". To kind of back it up just a slight bit, even the average Excel user would say the same exact thing, especially ones that try to avoid having to use Quicken or more complicated pieces of software (which I know, there DOES exist GNU Cash, etc). But yeah, keep it simple, keep it Emacs, keep it Org Mode, and keep it fun :) No need for Ledger. On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, at 2:04 PM, Marcin Borkowski wrote: > > On 2022-01-10, at 18:01, Samuel Banya wrote: > > > The 'double reporting' idea might have been why I just flat out shook my head when I saw the one presentation on 'ledger' in Emacs on YouTube a while ago as its a bit too complicated and unnecessary for a layman. > > > > I just don't need that kind of over-thinking when it comes to my finances since I just need a spreadsheet that listed expenses, and to count totals. That's about it. > > You may think it's overthinking... unless you encounter one of the many > /real-world problems/ the double-accounting system was /designed/ to > solve. > > A classic example is when you buy something on day X (expense) but pay > for it on day Y (cash outflow), and you want to be able to record both > dates. > > Or you have some irregular costs (like paying for a car insurance once > a year) and you want to spread them more evenly over a longer period, so > that your /cash outflow/ is recorded once a year, but the associated > /cost/ is recorded every month. (This may help tremendously with > budgeting.) > > Or you decide to transfer money between two bank accounts (both yours), > but money going from account A arrives at account B after one day (or > even later). > > Or you buy something for someone and he pays you back a few days (or > weeks, or months) later, or not at all (which may happen). > > > As you might notice, the first two examples are situations when the > /expense/ and /cash outflow/ are detached in time - something > /extremely/ common in business, but also pretty common in personal > finance. You might say that you don't care - and I understand that - > but it is actually very useful to track /both/ expenses (so that you > know your cost of living etc.) and cash in- and outflows (so that you > can reconcile your ledger with your cash/bank account etc., to ensure > you didn't make any mistake). (If you - like most people, I assume - > barely have liquidity, tracking cash flows may become even more > important.) Also, the difference in time between income/expenses and > cash flow may become /extremely/ important when calculating taxes. > > The third example is also connected with things happening at different > moments in time, though to be fair, if you're only interested in actual > /expenses/, you probably wouldn't even want to record that. > > The last example is similar to the third one - it's not an /expense/ per > se, but again - tracking cash is useful, tracking your assets and > liabilities (in that case, money you owe to other people and money other > people owe to you) is /extremely/ useful, even just as an individual, > and if that guy /doesn't/ pay you back (mind you, this may happen for > /legitimate/ issues, like death), it can actually /become/ an expense. > > Also, using accounting software makes things like calculating your net > worth trivial. And there are other issues which can quickly become > pretty hairy when you try to wrap you head around them with a simple > spreadsheet (like dealing with various currencies/stock/commodities with > varying prices, for instance), but which have standard, well-known > solutions in the world of accounting. > > > Actually, I'd argue that learning the basics of accounting could help > a /layman/ better manage their finances. While the technicalities of > bookkeeping are not relevant to that, the general ideas like cash flow, > income and expenses, balance sheet, assets and liabilities, liquidity, > compound interest etc. provide a very useful way of thinking about > money. Two examples. A friend of mine (an economist) was asked to > conduct a 45-minute class for high-schoolers about economics (and > finance, I guess). He decided that if these kids are to have any use of > that class, he should gice them a few sentences - "anchors", I'd call > them - which could be some kind of guidelines to use when navigating the > world of economy (on a scale of a country as well as of a household) and > finance. One of these sentences was: "If I don't have enough cash to > buy , it means I cannot afford it." It's as simple as that - but > it goes very much against the message you get from (among others) the > banking system. (And yes, there are "exceptions". But you can learn > about those later.) The second example is actually my pet peeve - some > people buy things and call them "investments", probably to (possibly > unconsciously) justify these expenses. Usually these expenses have > /nothing/ to do with investments. Buying a car is /not/ an investment > unless you use it to earn money. Buying a better tv is /not/ an > investment. Buying a house /can/ be an investment if it allows you to > save on rent. Simply put: an "investment" is an expense you make that > will enable you to generate income (or at least cut costs) in the future > (with reasonable certainty or at least reasonable probability - buying > a lottery ticket is /not/ an investment). > > > Anyway, if any of the above sounds like it might be useful for you, I'd > strongly suggest learning the basics of double accounting. It's neither > very hard nor boring! > > Best, > mb > > > > > > > I will take a look at the other suggestions with specific Org Mode formulas, looked awesome, thanks. > > > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, at 10:31 AM, Greg Minshall wrote: > >> > I'm wondering if your opinion about Ledger isn't influenced by the fact > >> > that it uses basic accounting principles, like the idea of double-entry > >> > accounting. For me, it's /very/ simple and intuitive, but I graduated > >> > in economics many years ago and had a (basic, but still) course on > >> > accounting. If that is your problem, I'd suggest spending some time on > >> > understanding that - even if you don't end up using Ledger but some > >> > other software, you might find learning about accounting useful. (Also, > >> > it's fascinating. No, really! It's an extremely clever abstract > >> > system with a real-life use-case.) > >> > >> i agree that learning the principles of double-entry is worthwhile, > >> actually interesting, and of a very interesting history! > >> > > > -- > Marcin Borkowski > http://mbork.pl > --a3fe9ee0eeea47868419ec3392dfe24b Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The double repo= rting thing still doesn't apply to me.

Even= if you pay with credit cards, ultimately it comes out of your regular b= ank account to pay off.

To me, its easier t= o just focus on the single bank account, and obtain the latest .csv from= the current week (Last Saturday to current Saturday), and treat the ent= ire list as a list of negative value expenses, and positive income items= to keep it super simple.

The simpler it is= , the better for me, because I honestly hate doing finances, and only do= them to make sure I'm ontop of everything as its the last thing I want = to do on a given week.

Hope that helps give= some background, since I don't want to appear to be difficult, but woul= d rather just "keep it in a spreadsheet".

T= o kind of back it up just a slight bit, even the average Excel user woul= d say the same exact thing, especially ones that try to avoid having to = use Quicken or more complicated pieces of software (which I know, there = DOES exist GNU Cash, etc).

But yeah, keep i= t simple, keep it Emacs, keep it Org Mode, and keep it fun :) No need fo= r Ledger.

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022, at 2:04 PM,= Marcin Borkowski wrote:

On 2022-01-10, at 18:01, Samuel Banya <<= a href=3D"mailto:sbanya@fastmail.com">sbanya@fastmail.com> wrote:=

> The 'double reporting' idea might hav= e been why I just flat out shook my head when I saw the one presentation= on 'ledger' in Emacs on YouTube a while ago as its a bit too complicate= d and unnecessary for a layman.
>
> I = just don't need that kind of over-thinking when it comes to my finances = since I just need a spreadsheet that listed expenses, and to count total= s. That's about it.

You may think it's over= thinking... unless you encounter one of the many
/real-wor= ld problems/ the double-accounting system was /designed/ to
solve.

A classic example is when you buy = something on day X (expense) but pay
for it on day Y (cash= outflow), and you want to be able to record both
dates.

Or you have some irregular costs (like payin= g for a car insurance once
a year) and you want to spread = them more evenly over a longer period, so
that your /cash = outflow/ is recorded once a year, but the associated
/cost= / is recorded every month.  (This may help tremendously with
budgeting.)

Or you decide to transf= er money between two bank accounts (both yours),
but money= going from account A arrives at account B after one day (or
even later).

Or you buy something for so= meone and he pays you back a few days (or
weeks, or months= ) later, or not at all (which may happen).

=
As you might notice, the first two examples are situation= s when the
/expense/ and /cash outflow/ are detached in ti= me - something
/extremely/ common in business, but also pr= etty common in personal
finance.  You might say that = you don't care - and I understand that -
but it is actuall= y very useful to track /both/ expenses (so that you
know y= our cost of living etc.) and cash in- and outflows (so that you
can reconcile your ledger with your cash/bank account etc., to ens= ure
you didn't make any mistake).  (If you - like mos= t people, I assume -
barely have liquidity, tracking cash = flows may become even more
important.)  Also, the dif= ference in time between income/expenses and
cash flow may = become /extremely/ important when calculating taxes.

<= /div>
The third example is also connected with things happening at d= ifferent
moments in time, though to be fair, if you're onl= y interested in actual
/expenses/, you probably wouldn't e= ven want to record that.

The last example i= s similar to the third one - it's not an /expense/ per
se,= but again - tracking cash is useful, tracking your assets and
=
liabilities (in that case, money you owe to other people and money = other
people owe to you) is /extremely/ useful, even just = as an individual,
and if that guy /doesn't/ pay you back (= mind you, this may happen for
/legitimate/ issues, like de= ath), it can actually /become/ an expense.

= Also, using accounting software makes things like calculating your net
worth trivial.  And there are other issues which can q= uickly become
pretty hairy when you try to wrap you head a= round them with a simple
spreadsheet (like dealing with va= rious currencies/stock/commodities with
varying prices, fo= r instance), but which have standard, well-known
solutions= in the world of accounting.


Actually, I'd argue that learning the basics of accounting could help
a /layman/ better manage their finances.  While the te= chnicalities of
bookkeeping are not relevant to that, the = general ideas like cash flow,
income and expenses, balance= sheet, assets and liabilities, liquidity,
compound intere= st etc. provide a very useful way of thinking about
money.=   Two examples.  A friend of mine (an economist) was asked to<= br>
conduct a 45-minute class for high-schoolers about economi= cs (and
finance, I guess).  He decided that if these = kids are to have any use of
that class, he should gice the= m a few sentences - "anchors", I'd call
them - which could= be some kind of guidelines to use when navigating the
wor= ld of economy (on a scale of a country as well as of a household) and
finance.  One of these sentences was: "If I don't have = enough cash to
buy <blank>, it means I cannot afford= it."  It's as simple as that - but
it goes very much= against the message you get from (among others) the
banki= ng system.  (And yes, there are "exceptions".  But you can lea= rn
about those later.)  The second example is actuall= y my pet peeve - some
people buy things and call them "inv= estments", probably to (possibly
unconsciously) justify th= ese expenses.  Usually these expenses have
/nothing/ = to do with investments.  Buying a car is /not/ an investment
unless you use it to earn money.  Buying a better tv is /no= t/ an
investment.  Buying a house /can/ be an investm= ent if it allows you to
save on rent.  Simply put: an= "investment" is an expense you make that
will enable you = to generate income (or at least cut costs) in the future
(= with reasonable certainty or at least reasonable probability - buying
a lottery ticket is /not/ an investment).

=

Anyway, if any of the above sounds like it mig= ht be useful for you, I'd
strongly suggest learning the ba= sics of double accounting.  It's neither
very hard no= r boring!

Best,
mb
<= div>


>
>= I will take a look at the other suggestions with specific Org Mode form= ulas, looked awesome, thanks.
>
> On M= on, Jan 10, 2022, at 10:31 AM, Greg Minshall wrote:
>&g= t; > I'm wondering if your opinion about Ledger isn't influenced by t= he fact
>> > that it uses basic accounting princi= ples, like the idea of double-entry
>> > accounti= ng.  For me, it's /very/ simple and intuitive, but I graduated
<= /div>
>> > in economics many years ago and had a (basic, bu= t still) course on
>> > accounting.  If that= is your problem, I'd suggest spending some time on
>&g= t; > understanding that - even if you don't end up using Ledger but s= ome
>> > other software, you might find learning = about accounting useful.  (Also,
>> > it's f= ascinating.  No, really!  It's an extremely clever abstract
>> > system with a real-life use-case.)
>> 
>> i agree that learning the princ= iples of double-entry is worthwhile,
>> actually int= eresting, and of a very interesting history!
>> = ;


-- 
Mar= cin Borkowski


--a3fe9ee0eeea47868419ec3392dfe24b--