From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id GOUpCwnihWBRxAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 23:41:29 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id SMrcBgnihWDsKAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 21:41:29 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 816A426180 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 23:41:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41942 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lamVL-0007n8-7k for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:41:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53742) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lamUv-0007mn-Va for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:41:01 -0400 Received: from wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com ([64.147.123.19]:40617) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lamUt-0002hv-Hc for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:41:01 -0400 Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id EACF71BDB for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:40:58 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=KqprGrZtKtmAAek7QUtWF6alAB3FXkrwE5ODqJ9oN mM=; b=Uhw/E3zs5FDf6u0stkrepgR9a+pGl2WplsGNfVkF7yJq6DOElwtPy69M7 XXJXyJ9JgVQ2zg5Hcjp+J95PcuQi0+HD1tmGbih+5gwGtNxlZzhflfO4UnpG7O30 SXVOsZjbJThaO//v5j8IV3Cm75ZNOvvT9z5I1bFchXpbNpNR0WxlTAWDPSvPPE7e ey7KR7VEjpXKCRvhTX4bpZbv9vHEwo+vpEr5RtMwH21qsycQfY0Ipfmn6ldk+STQ oFfu+LDr19w0AFzh2gI7GIrbM7AOLut9QivgCBwR6qPgYv+qAioNSc1hM3TyKU6Y iZZdmhw3xtva2WM1PId5Ayizp3F0g== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeduledrvddujecutefuodetggdotefrodftvfcurf hrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecuuegr ihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepuffvfhfhkffffgggjggtgfesthejredttd efjeenucfhrhhomheppfhitghkucfurghvrghgvgcuoehnihgtkhesnhhitghkshgrvhgr ghgvrdgtrgeqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepieekgfegheduleduleegveelkeelieelue evjefhueetudffgfdtvdeuleehkedunecuffhomhgrihhnpehorhhgmhhouggvrdhorhhg necukfhppedujeegrdelfedrudeihedrudefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenuc frrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepnhhitghksehnihgtkhhsrghvrghgvgdrtggr X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [192.168.0.67] (bras-base-aylmpq0104w-grc-46-174-93-165-13.dsl.bell.ca [174.93.165.13]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 30926240054 for ; Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Concerns about community contributor support To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87pmyuyssi.fsf@gmail.com> <87v98b0yvm.fsf@gnu.org> From: Nick Savage Message-ID: Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2021 17:40:56 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87v98b0yvm.fsf@gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US Received-SPF: none client-ip=64.147.123.19; envelope-from=nick@nicksavage.ca; helo=wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619386888; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=KqprGrZtKtmAAek7QUtWF6alAB3FXkrwE5ODqJ9oNmM=; b=JWb+v17iBmD8nfsEiLJrGft1v/artip4F79B1JpFNmwcZnGug8Yyi+PkvoYiCe3D0lKXqu klRL9KQ+QoCZN1CuQGgrdkiRZtzF/IBAL9UqYV4XYzu4Rqxt5o+YuIqKbPvyGVF2RCII/l vn1+CK3iO35bKVTsgCx+bML/C+n16VqLkdt0wKfVNVTjFR2KqBThDEKsE73MQVP0IoSlql WT0h5B6lZg5/4bq7oe2qWyMq3rjC9d1x9JZsZXXtd7cKBotJHzyV9nxdLLqLKXwFbgYpd6 5LPOT7F7yPuY+7h8lMRAWHd3JtBO5DbY2qxONfpE6EdJHdbDZmWsTtxwsPXgLg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619386888; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Uerwk5rsDd5o1yg0jS7GQ6MO3kE9vCwFkO4U7a2FgxW64Wtzngq3Mhnl+ZWt12QAO8UIuw 9uo9Qs6ntgZ/HbhDxCkFfM1RXajGatnNODy0b73n09GUsbehofXUykkCyyNYgfgKxIaNo/ vhnO5N92t4lBcbZuTkJ7V4vGzM34GEz8KBUaBVrpjsp+2rrQ0+W50lNQ9Yj2UwpxxKkyQ9 JnQPqbBaTrabCMrkK4TBdpItwFkl8NWPK0xDQMfseZNmk6NmykSxzMwp3m8X3N3VuBNPbv XX1khlGj5uyCTwNcZj+9Ss7zGV5bdx1kn7p4YL5N5ZwztGHdDqZmzdQURxmh0w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b="Uhw/E3zs"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.65 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b="Uhw/E3zs"; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 816A426180 X-Spam-Score: -2.65 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: SDKm+mL7sQ6X As a new contributor, I wanted to add my two cents. I've submitted a minor amount of patches (somewhere between 1 and 3, I can't remember exactly), and I feel that the other problems you raise, primarily the first one, are obstacles towards that though. Patches like that are obviously minor, since they aren't fixing bugs, so they're low priority. That drags out the process though, and it's a little discouraging to submit patches that don't receive responses, and make me less eager to submit more.For example, I submitted a tiny refactoring patch last month that hasn't received an answer yet. I'm not looking for special treatment of course, and think that review of patches is super important (especially for a new contributor like me) I think that the solutions you raise are great starts. I feel like the documentation that I've used has been pretty accurate, but it could always be better, and someone who is the point person for dealing with people like me would be a good idea. I would not like to volunteer for that myself. I don't feel comfortable enough with my abilities, or my experience with the community, to able to help others or give reasonable answers for patches other than something like "yes, I've seen this". I will try to help out more with verifying bugs though. On a side note, I'd like some guidance though on whether or not the community is interested in a refactoring project (done in pieces of course). I'm wondering if I should be attempting to submit minor (or larger) patches moving things around to make it easier to maintain, if there is a way to go about this (since submitting a bunch at a time, breaking them up, etc), certain things I should focus on or ignore, etc. I haven't done much since that mostly because work has consumed my free time, but I'm going to have a significant amount more free time starting in the next week or so, so I'm looking for somewhere to direct my energies! On 4/25/21 12:30 AM, Bastien wrote: > Dear Timothy, > > thanks for raising this points so carefully, they are important. > > I see three distinct problems: > > 1. The lack of response and/or follow-up when people contribute by > sending bug reports or patches on the list. > > 2. The lack of maintainance on documenting the contribution process > and the correct expectations for future contributors. > > 3. The inherent difficulty to move the Org codebase forward. > > I won't comment on (3). For (1) and (2), I suggest appointing a > "contributor steward" with these responsibilities: > > 1. Maintain updates.orgmode.org (i.e. make sure it is accurate.) > 2. Maintain the documentation for contributors. > 3. Help contributors enhancing their patches. > 4. Try to reproduce bugs (and confirm them for updates.orgmode.org) > 5. Make sure patch contributors are not left with no answer. > > You started (1), which is really appreciated. > > Tim and others mentioned (2), and that's certainly needed too. > > (3) has historically been the role of the maintainer and of the core > contributors, but helping with this is very welcome: knowing the doc > at https://orgmode.org/worg/org-contribute.html by heart, educating > contributors on the commit messages, etc. This all helps. > > (4) is perhaps the most daunting task: I even think we could have > someone only dedicated to this very important task. Just count the > number of times Nicolas says "I cannot reproduce this." Each time, > there is a real bug that is *not* fixed... > > (5) is not about systematically welcome patch submitters with a > message (that would be annoying) but to monitor updates.orgmode.org > and decide what to do with a patch that didn't receive feedback: > either say thanks and ping the list for why you think the patch > deserves more attention, or thanks and dismiss the patch, or another > answer. > > What do you think? Would you be willing to take this role? > > If not, that's perfectly okay, I'll send a call for help. > > Thanks, >