From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id QCnAOldJvGFuWgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:24:55 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id cBpxNldJvGGJegAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 08:24:55 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 612D722633 for ; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:24:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59696 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1my8Xt-0007mX-OG for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:24:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55552) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1my8X0-0007mP-5G for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:23:58 -0500 Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:35376) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1my8Wx-000300-9D for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 03:23:57 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID: Subject:To:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Cc:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=2IHmuEbndNJvFDM66dVmMcc/vauICc9vcjoFDcuziIg=; b=Xq3E2p1S5qGY47+XrdHijHQxGv PKjnRp6ZKs+bdeI/m8tizVqldC/dcunCo8DIm4vLy3+uGlWbxwbNPTUM3yA3QHV98vClNZNMpQEjp 8JLInK3UCv4AdiLwAuUBID5hyD1Pr9gc9zCGeg38+rYzlYqbMr4WKC/Jxcamw+Gcl34ZTjNmlVYOP QSM6/H0qdvNOPIJZ6zkyR2XVyaPkq99kbrJ2wx9IzsaRWTfbvWBbhU7qFk/QAH+/7sJZBg9b9LYRb XA2UyLvSqUhzoE3UsN8aHIeKZl0Efd5tap7Y/zfnj3os+WYXZCPHgQ7ZOCPPjv8iDzr/C5vKy7SCa HXO6CIgA==; Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1my8Wn-0002lh-GT for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:23:45 +0100 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:23:45 +0100 To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: format/fill of text in a cell in tables Message-ID: References: <874k78evcr.fsf@localhost> <87mtl0b1u2.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sIrLC5jn/w4ztQZc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87mtl0b1u2.fsf@gmail.com> From: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1639729495; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=2IHmuEbndNJvFDM66dVmMcc/vauICc9vcjoFDcuziIg=; b=k49kx8vUcvLP2itLb1PLYQo0k6a1HL5ExqnhBnVEjWIXWgGcRkf8yDdrvDG7XMxv9duQxI KyGsAxuxGl4u/HkpqEnK+YSFEOZGHdQybjh1sN2Aigm4xaxSuLmmdETHnjHetZ8bW9ZexV KwBafBfE7zVcYPa6ILr4OUWdJ8iKcI21XJtUIxQb7JesqBY8VNZFNDzWsfPFKuWT0Y9GUm fRC7HCUsrbObj2S/WUP9EWIYKyYtuq69MlOvKad3Fuz3bNMptxouIRpXWKrWnvzdBGBkVy qQcUOtMuFLGPRSPtXlHEdaW6iai/q8AfOXiDVVF/EnU4CTrkH9F+DTgJXXlY4g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1639729495; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=MfsPTMI0hf59CHgEd9PIMq0KSr846kYxc8b3PIwgJn+dWGXq8jM3t1JaSWRuj3t41odKuv /Q8PzhmyCfXixzQocyNofkDoD6FMruxV2WDwS8Nat8WogRJLH7ldXLaQIwRKSyI1/W0CA5 6AP3DLRsgm0XQZPJ9hKSEI6ZUfL2RL4/E4ugqmj4k5ogXWk5Enia4R3t7T8Il1b/5tiw6b oL8+3G4D6XU14PxzpS1Ey2eg2of4V8vY2dWgsSeIPXtYGV5eT5nNgg5b/GGdJUgYZVO/vG m5Kc3juI2x7J9sfeFgNKiI4+08jq5s1WVCeFJPIh+JHW2judfb2w2kLgkFL04Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tuxteam.de header.s=mail header.b=Xq3E2p1S; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.39 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tuxteam.de header.s=mail header.b=Xq3E2p1S; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 612D722633 X-Spam-Score: -4.39 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: an3da9GXKy/7 --sIrLC5jn/w4ztQZc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 08:51:59AM +1100, Tim Cross wrote: [on flowing text whithin table cells] > I agree. This is actually a much harder problem to solve than it may > appear on the surface [...] If you want to get completely dizzy, watch the recurrent threads about proportional fonts in emacs-user or emacs devel :-) That's when things start getting interesting. > If you have lots of cells needing wrapping, the table is perhaps not the > right layout mechanism to use. While it may seem like a convenient way > to present content, often it isn't a great way to consume it. Donald > Knuth wrote a bit about why tables with multiple cell lines were a poor > choice. After years of dealing with project managers who too often use > Excel to record, present and share data, I tend to agree with his views. > I'm also old enough to remember when the table was the 'goto' solution > for managing layout in HTML files and what a mess that became. Very interesting points you make. I'd like to add a couple or two ;-) * static vs dynamic, user vs master An admirer of Knuth myself, I tend to relativise his position: he's a book writer in the classical sense. Lots of things happen at "compile time", you (the reader) get to watch (in awe) the process's results. Tables have an advantage if your approach is an explorative one, i.e. if the process is part of the result. I don't think they are as successful as they are for no reason (SQL, or R's data frames are about tables, after all, so it's not only Excel). If you want your reader to take part in the exploration process, a table might just be right. The cell lines is again in the same pattern: once the layout is fixed, you can tweak your appearance so you can drop the lines. The result is astounding, but only if you know your trade damn well. Knuth does. If things are still in flow, or if you aren't a Grandmaster, perhaps lines do help [1]. Now sometimes, this "in flow" is part of what you want to convey, so... * acculturation & perception Very interesting point you make about "project managers". This reminds me that there's not that One Perception Ruleset. People tend to justify nearly anything with anything (remember those arguing with grey levels and contrast to prove that serif fonts are more readable? Or was it the other way around?). To the project managers, tables are probably the most readable, because they read them all the time. Especially if they are made with Microsoft (that's the basis of the power of those corps, after all). Human perception seems so adaptable that it's nearly scary. So it is all part of a giant feedback loop. Difficult to spot some bedrock in this mess. Perception is culture is perception. The point you make about assistive technologies is hugely important. I haven't much experience with blind people myself, but I'm convinced that their perception of dimensionality (2D, 2D vs 3D) could be quite different from that of sighted people. Is a table an advantage or a disadvantage then? Does it depend on the strategic path they have chosen? Do some feel better at 3D? 5D? [2] * WYS ain't WYG Lastly, Org ain't WYSIWYG (well, duh). But such things as flowed cells are measuring it up to one, up to a point (although, at some point, I admit to having yearned for some). A strength is a weakness is a strength. I think it is the nature of Org to live with such conflicts. It's an interesting place, where it lives :-) Cheers [1] You better go with your camera's defaults to take an everyday photo. If you're planning that astounding grainy B&W portrait, you're in for some training. [2] I had once a prof in functional analysis: the way he drew his things on the blackboard gave us the impression that he really was /seeing/ those infinite-dimensional vector spaces he constantly talked about. Scary :) --=20 tom=C3=A1s --sIrLC5jn/w4ztQZc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EABECAB0WIQRp53liolZD6iXhAoIFyCz1etHaRgUCYbxJCgAKCRAFyCz1etHa RsPHAJ41jpUUNhHX05dSenk9hn6/FtkeDQCfWfOc6QtW1XvBX1C7wEPL7gOupa4= =S4Kv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sIrLC5jn/w4ztQZc--