From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0EOsNe0SsWGSfgEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 21:17:49 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id YOpRMe0SsWHrCgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 20:17:49 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 597E013765 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 21:17:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36332 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv3Nr-0008Jw-9R for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 15:17:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50194) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv3LY-0006zy-4d for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 15:15:24 -0500 Received: from [2a05:1500:300:2:4c1:10ff:fe00:1ce] (port=54778 helo=se07.route25.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv3LT-0003CT-G9 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 15:15:23 -0500 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2021 21:14:47 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> <87lf0uvq9s.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87lf0uvq9s.fsf@web.de> X-Originating-IP: 2a00:f10:400:2:446:66ff:fe00:2ce X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 2a00:f10:400:2:446:66ff:fe00:2ce X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2nspCm5WjWZ+M7tuXbr7FiVn/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVylI3hUR174TAU8LiLVUzcV3Hh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxmwL2WEaPBA6De4XYiAIQRLsztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DLMi8hWdki0aJI+WTfhcWWtJ HYSbq7x+njwKytwz7s2FBw/kRnmLEqBTVkvt9ThomMu3JXbG60am7AKodd1QerSYrSE+ZKFw3934 venbNbp7O//0FC8uiskn7aSYNbeQypdCOK5UVzxb+wkmKpkdrUuibnQPQKvYYJLFS+Hxi5+jLOjr OwwGI3kKu05JnDlv7nAKet5ATEVyvcD3zonKMuho7Pcjf6jhxqhOSQCTP5WoiPg8NGrhBSlTYXv+ RODac9UyddLU3pUIZJVuss0/UdL+er5VcOQLiojRw6m1JOCGiNaC014Vy40HEXgl5C8scPB9XYP7 vixq0HVs6U9Ty93KE5l5UpciHSgySfEf/Fl39R/2gMGq0KWAzmMf+ibVDlbJsvVTvDqJ6yGBbNGp n/klarSqmECMkPHOyvTSaWak76WS0gK94wcwLRgYWRwLFAmGZionQ8jFfz1/t0tMyqxPcEm80uax Dm7HyfjBsRHHPEeHyrAUT/s1ZQVvZW+9gG3TxtzLdFtJRh4rDAtZPKA= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a05:1500:300:2:4c1:10ff:fe00:1ce (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a05:1500:300:2:4c1:10ff:fe00:1ce; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se07.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638994669; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=MWKO0BEtakcb/8V/tWnzc3lrsjkh1Iir7ISeMGpI1Ac=; b=TYS2RU4uaiOIAceklwweEauF6Wz/b4e6gi8U1oJkVyviJqGKXjMXT9Ui5wjGcSokOiaw0w nSE5wjDLjx0HbN4DSe+vxqHapSh4j7CGO3+JLJwCFeyZvLZA1gODGTHPKP/PlBdpycjfc1 Mt2FFdxtZSsmhJw6z5VxxBuk1oJ+CpvnnGC1aJ456J0nIY+6i7QHNTpWiCVVdF/GRIyGgS QwjJwPX0SzGy1+Dyj1Bxq4E9pbrlkK51XV6W0OOhGcEH4Fx9C7qdkVzNUFMXm8ECsoRWVM +sydt+ChqpY5x3/P4KD0a94JvIlZuqL6F0gnb2JrR63EecwShghHFoBHIq1WNA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638994669; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=oFj25U6tI1eXwYnXJO4OYB9XFGs8cuxVRxQwZpjhHxNytyeNKTaHvP6cgB25dMMFxNxc1x iZyXdKuI+73uVKcOcuNjQ4H0nsYkhLl93ZcztNoHOEnwiyfXMpWjo7EiCsvY/FMoo02oxB scpdPLRvPRwaC0S7J0wLOM6Jy29hEiukAVri8wii5KooGZgvI7KwnR8UHF4fLjGq0YnHUY N6HhM9HF3HvQaHlmI9bG+AiaADo+MO3/JqPCXy+8UdCP+fZ2+upoNxTrPcul4yfNPKJsy2 55BMgVIQ9UQtQRdevbDlOfKoL4eOJ4ZxW5rzR37hpRUf2Doq0SS76dl0vKQvDQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.45 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 597E013765 X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: yboKmhom21T+ On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 08:22:31PM +0100, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: > > - Anything outside of basic Org syntax, tables and source blocks I do > > directly in latex. Images are a good example. I will use latex code > > for the image, sizing, orientation, etc instead of relying on Org's > > extended syntax for image links, caption, and attributes. > > > As a result my publishing has been pretty consistent for customer > > documents. I also only update my Org between projects. ;] > > If I had needed a stronger argument for more backwards compatibility, > this list of habits is it. That should not be required to keep your > org-mode documents working. I think this may be a problem regarding expectations. I expect Org to be great at handling it's own format, and to give me the editing experience within Emacs that I have come to expect. That Org can also be used to export to other formats is both a blessing and a curse. Org can only do high level constructs in the languages it exports to, and really should only be expected to do just that. It's a paper thin macro or template over a much more complicated document language. Org's lightweight markup has had things bolted onto it repeatedly for years. Typically issues have resulted in changes in the export engine defaults (ie: html moving to using css), and not Org itself changing the editing experience in Emacs. > Org-mode is not just a library, it keeps user-data. It should really not > be volatile¹. Org's format isn't volatile. You could view those anytime in Org and see what you expect to see. The issue you are having is that an old document may not export perfectly over time. What if Org didn't diverge, the underlying format did? > If I can’t trust org-mode to keep working but have to check the > documents every time I come back to them — and might have to spend hours > fixing them — then it not suitable for writing, as much as that would > pain me (because it would cast into doubt most of my decisions around > writing of the past decade). You can absolutely trust Org to open, view, and edit it's own files even decades old. It's plain text, so there's no risk in experiencing a permanent loss of data. The exporting is the difference in expectations. Org's lightweight markup is quite simple, and the documents it produces should be as well. This is much like the original HTML specification. Look how complicated it is to write HTML now with CSS and Javascript emulating mundane functions after decades of bolt on "standards". If I had a document which had a highly sensitive output format which had to remain perfect over decades, I would argue that perhaps Org wasn't the correct markup to write it in. Much like plain text vs original simple HTML, vs Latex. Text was plain and simple, with little formatting. Durable and ugly at times, but always legible. The original HTML had more markup required, but it was hyperlinks and some simple fonts and formats. Prettier, variable fonts, colors, pictures. Latex can make pixel perfect PDFs with multiple medias and professional results, however it has a very specific format and this may be poor for writing in dynamically. HTML required decades of tweaks to become "pixel perfect", and HTML a decade old rarely renders properly in a "modern" browser. At some point with each of these languages, the formatting became more important than the content. I write all my customer documentation in Org, with custom Latex templates. I've only had to make major changes once, I think between v8 and v9. Yes, my old documents won't export identically without the changes. The likelihood they still export is high, and 100% that I can view and edit them correctly in Org. It's only the polished result which could degrade. I may have to tweak them to make them export the same way again, but I expect they can without too much effort. I'm OK with that. > Please do not make org-mode volatile.¹ I think our maintainers have done an excellent job of minimizing the impact of any changes. However when changes are needed, I trust their judgement to have good reason to make a change and document it thoroughly. However I only export Org to be backwardly compatible with itself, not the languages it makes exports to. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3