From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id IP2YCPBkrmFSMAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 20:30:56 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id mMpNBPBkrmFlRgAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 19:30:56 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE3533F3FF for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:30:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:46780 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muJhN-0001dm-SA for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 14:30:53 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49398) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muJfg-0001dN-Qh for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 14:29:08 -0500 Received: from [2a00:f10:402:781:1c00:26ff:fe00:2553] (port=49582 helo=se12.route25.eu) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muJfe-0001zV-2l for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 14:29:08 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 20:28:43 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <878rwyi8bt.fsf@posteo.net> <87r1aqnu3q.fsf@gmail.com> <8735n6i4br.fsf@posteo.net> <796107.1638785063@apollo2.minshall.org> <87tufl6apx.fsf@posteo.net> <87bl1td20x.fsf@atlantis> <87o85to8wh.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87o85to8wh.fsf@gmail.com> X-Originating-IP: 185.87.184.57 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 185.87.184.57 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT9WLQux0N3HQm8ltz8rnu+BPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2nvqBKOPLSVg9myg19renCQp/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVylI3hUR174TAU8LiLVUzcV3Hh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxmIh7KPOCjtDjCJbuSnMNTpcztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DJ8yTUE5ABY7lZUQaTevIGE+ W38Ad5gogTzaVrxCCZR85bYqeYKlyxRYTOXijEUDWgeYUOp7A73HI6oJg7w/VofXNtJGfb5qBubz eax4SnFxX0vbOV1GC4tWSdMEfX0qZk++GRKi3fJfRTPr/PuJHE3m6VivjERwJCPAqPqAny+5dxGq bFPaf63IwETnO6Zd42B43TtY/1k+a/6UbLWDGoQSmaNxolwRRdgrNQGaPBFaZuM7jUXIESohoO51 xWmU8XVM/nDHjrAGU5vVL4XTIv4MLPip/u1PihktsjK9KjB8YeKFIoZNCEtidK7IlrsGUp+i+6nm 8QLONw0zB8awNr0L/wzCdtFGkMNi6UfW3mVmwk3xC0YEqah8H9zG7AE/EhqZfqbUZNOrBWY03CEu +85tl6nIiSdD++5RdEBEl+IPHAXz/6s5FV11bC5ISFJqlg03a6SLNhJ6Q12/4jZa7jE= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:f10:402:781:1c00:26ff:fe00:2553 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:f10:402:781:1c00:26ff:fe00:2553; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se12.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638819055; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=GXBzQUjFhysrY3c/TQXRMz5H628A1luLGL1/jurMLC8=; b=SZ3ftDH5iAMUFYH8SU6kUPU61LKF/cJgXiRCXsVRzFg/Ie7oe4n7Zfu7H2S+NEur3cGbkU ZYRHGWPmdNaKsYhniPQvszI9L2fHgAkYxCzpLM13PS54+HyaxDSEVpOs7BVXtW0Ie0VJ5J I32Mf1PJZuheJXLxtoc7nfoCdmdm8+p44BM/fi4nIAKaIBiaRMFUGQiE5asG69gMjuPecJ kpaE4VucVSLQgM9lL/BCk+y7RiyW0TJBqhvuO1kyRqWbMf+9qGWlNMJ2IpGWaaYVOQFyBD 4B0y47RhCoEoQXcBi7tPeLcp+nzo6cluWjI1veLu5UlUtMXkw6mMPEFsvMjQFQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638819055; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=huhjD1JEXUDw/QjVWCNe5eqOZVjtuKo7bf1Boh6JORCHkj8aUSIBtMQdFIOV+ckqG4kQjy tF0IHfgf4dVfe9CAQV2uhMsb1ixRuH1n6oKhuFBiB9pkzx2aO4T8mhqJ15fWy+ihAgPvLO Lq8VqihbHB18mcgsx1wgXFPqLTiz6A0VH5xESBumGeKbjs4lHdqeHGXjqaXFNstEMQCWfM p7da77KaqTKmrdNWzOOGH/JDHo/UGY1MLXaKOfYDa9jhHJbcD0omgFsv9j2PA9vdANU3dT 80/VzopJ6pyEw29tj9JLUAtBZPYdZKSngZHBEMHt5/5nDerSoOeTPi4HfW3eQA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: AE3533F3FF X-Spam-Score: -2.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: FB/qOcqYz0ey On Tue, Dec 07, 2021 at 02:47:28AM +0800, Timothy wrote: > I have a few comments on your comments :) To my esteemed colleague, I have a few comments for your comments on my comments. ;] > > How many syntax documents are we supposed to maintain outside of the working > > implementation in Emacs and the manual? > > Just the one. I have some ideas on this that need to be written up, but I see > this more as polishing our syntax specification such that it’s is more > approachable for someone interested in supporting Org. IMO this leads to a > syntax document which is just better, period. I'm all for the idea of tightening up documentation to make Org a more polished product. The issue is when the justification for that effort is interoperability with tools outside Emacs. > > Discussions are often fruitful for all involved and shouldn’t be a > > problem when conducted in a respectful manner. Expect critical > > opinions at times, but we should keep it civil. > > Indeed. I do find myself wishing that some discussions stayed more on-topic > though… My goal is to remind everyone that maintainer and coder time is a scarce resource, and I'm very protective of asking them to commit to anything. An indirect commitment can still feel like a commitment, even if it's only implied by popular opinion and not agreed to. As a free program with free and plain text results, anyone can code anything they want to work with it. Asking Org volunteers to do something outside the scope of Emacs should be critically examined before we can justify asking for volunteer time. That doesn't mean topics shouldn't be discussed, that discussion is the process of critical examination. There's also plenty of room for "fluff", but not flame. For instance, Karl clearly spent a lot of time on his proposal. I thought he was trying to clearly articulate issues from the recent discussions regarding interoperability. I appreciate his efforts even when I don't agree with every conclusion (I vote "Orgish"!). I wish I knew enough about the underlying code to make an informed opinion so I have abstained from on commenting on the details. I don't have to agree or disagree with every point, I'm just watching the debate and trying to place some gentle reminders in the discussion to keep it civil and remember our volunteers are just that, volunteers. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3