From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id cInHL3lKrWGPEAAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 06 Dec 2021 00:25:45 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id WJ2JK3lKrWFRfQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 23:25:45 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D1591D9AB for ; Mon, 6 Dec 2021 00:25:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58034 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mu0t5-00071k-TV for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 18:25:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43564) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mu0si-00071b-Al for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 18:25:20 -0500 Received: from se13.route25.eu ([185.66.250.215]:35942) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mu0sf-0005Qm-F1 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Dec 2021 18:25:19 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2021 00:24:51 +0100 From: Russell Adams To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87pmqasws7.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <87pmqasws7.fsf@posteo.net> X-Originating-IP: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Domain: out.pcextreme.nl X-SpamExperts-Username: 185.87.185.80 X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.10) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT+8AeYWhLA368QlLxKGNhk8PUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xiExUbNqvmdkLSOzf1W2Y3z8hkeSqZT0W1YMl0fRDa99cV PSoHm0W/3adFfiYl2nvzO8NWQL3MSQgaB1bZbSbi/T4GcPvCLvSpAEEGy7kYxsD3QRUnhlexiXT3 xXuXeIhevFP+kOiMW3ZJfjMJYMEj+gaXrHkgRC7/tI3CjXmVypdo5aaUSNp+X8cxh6fYVjnHh0cQ L0Ci0sRm4Wh/iZxmZw2OUofLfB7s8QYvnn3mfsztdQUSqk/AeLi65+4s/LrywTM2yEHEhvC9Izsy /NENTMQ3Kg3hL2oXz5A5E5R/dS4GkJ5hfB+qWugfDEytZYoACfRtBjLzEjgIZNLWhI/Mshn3T8Ox KyIrAogwLlirll+u0Sc2bgjgy6NE5WzPnrJ1fJyKyenPq733oZ8bAyJmHQrtppYmxMktfUX7kfB+ UdezYqxGMqsKjARq8PBC4qgxMmglBiLsgrvXOb7qEGUwgxHIagHkgJmlqPNWnLI1oovhSJcbnX/H QqL/X9rNCJCc6iESJvKm1NV8gkr+Wu8ScVDXinOVyuIpITQ9z3M3DO7OWuqF1+w/pTOKTb9S094O 5ldb4EwDPpdfe0QRwC0uNxtqvo9BhgNZR4j1ZuC6jX4NHr4858bpsMOxsVKkVdrin8trLB1aNUk3 bKYC3mDyT854kXwv2RX/MHp3a7oN/i32EoSnB0KQ6B3xt8UP9IrQLp/miaSDdXxJiAZb1EzkA9VQ u12rxRZzC8qBatCnagTrtG2ri2pU1A9ZOnhkpahzFCXbT736t381UoQxrOSmctgzcDoFd+96Xw4Q UNtTnT5USTuJ4+3886sgmKmkaUBIi2jULgpXi1xBXhUizdxdDneFtYF4v0IUhnwA7zUt/xXczwGF xR7aC6zIFLawTOmNvxgu6jFRoaLzVpT+CP36s6RbLfB6BI3XJUys1lM3IMGhDC7qKEsgLqHNXMxe jlB49DjiWowOnKvI8aF4jzAuZNIARVagEMhjyGL5llQ69151eclHOr67cHgLgz4Hvn0= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@semaster01.route25.eu Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.66.250.215; envelope-from=rladams@adamsinfoserv.com; helo=se13.route25.eu X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638746745; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=+8unCsmy8yBvlXP3aiEi8/A86TWlqmSwnOrwaOB0PEs=; b=ab8hG5VtykkZa8+lSYro/pTnuNc9k26rfNbMg9TluLmrm7LEMIwLsupGPmnxf3SH7hWgdk OS9IQEgxPoE6+xrqDr1bq23LCywhZSNCcf4+nKNt1RSwkg/WQLoZWtCWR+1Bhlu2N34iYd GrshsMTXv3knfB4kFlDXUQrGWHNjQkXVCGtBKjYjf5ogdIyzA3pltgVi35q/tpUf71ffeZ 6W5RaxCrZgCGwyClX92/3CfCSKUTawm3ux2TmvHWyB7RzHa7PM8sFXYmdFmD28M4njrNqT x4sjyj0Hl5CU7u0tx6/TEs/79XTRFADyHvf6LQhNd00mh5HGJdX0G3edrvqhLw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638746745; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=q2uCzySEciBMIU0qCcKRRPrD8qUKyWyzWYlwgZayOyfscGyBXO8qod/jpKBxReeSKj4ZyI QmCcIREpTnTpu0PE5MJXMdmrJ2kg2w5X7OqRvXPrz4OH4JHTzcEa71+/gH8LuMCXljlLFm MuOhoI6u0SO5Q11LzVeeCdUNC8/cXNnltZWxg8VSsvDcErDjNe1uZPSSJxdgbJKrbGGhwd 7DYPDlyoCVdfyewoiahb22KsK5ITCv4Bb/mMyrQZ/o1xEvyT9Y5VxgqruZbtfTOaVyPhWc JJMRfVj8cwczG/+Y8zQ4zg9fz3EDNB/fp/6Lc0O0Vt5UPGZdO1U9KC3V9ylvEg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.44 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4D1591D9AB X-Spam-Score: -2.44 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: RlJKVhdpiMpX On Sun, Dec 05, 2021 at 06:59:20PM +0000, Juan Manuel Macías wrote: > Frustration every time I want to recommend Org to many of my friends > and colleagues, who don't even use Emacs. I think this is the core of every interoperability argument: "Why do we have to use Emacs to use Org?" It's called Emacs Org-mode for a reason. Org-mode doesn't work outside of Emacs. I've often told users that it's worth learning enough Emacs to use Org, and have successfully moved several non-power users over to Emacs. They know enough to consistently open their files, edit Org, and quit. That's enough. They complain it's "ugly" compared to "modern" GUI tools, but they can't deny the utility. > I came to Org been an Emacs user already, so I was reasonably familiar > with Emacs and Elisp, although what I used most was AUCTeX (and Markdown > for my docs). I'd have a hard time convincing users in Mordor to use a plain text format, much less Org without Emacs. > On the other hand, Org as a lightweight markup language is only > a tiny part of Org. I don't think Org is better or worse as a markup > language than Markdown, asciidoc or other similar formats. What makes Org dramatically different is the editing experience in Emacs. Collapsing the outline, filtering on metadata, exports, agenda, etc. Those are Emacs features, not specific to the actual markup format. My impression is we already have stretched our resources thin trying to maintain Org. Pushing to provide compatibility with non-Emacs tools seems a poor use of their time, and rude to ask of them. If non-Emacs users and coders want to use Org formatted files, they are free to spend their time customizing their tools to make it work. If the Org project owes anything to anyone, it's a consistent experience for the users who have used Org for years. Not changes to satisfy potential users or follow trendy fads. My experience has been that Org's markup is so simple and could be summarized in a few lines. Anything more complex enters the territory of Emacs only features (ie: drawers. exports, view control, source blocks, reporting). Those are unlikely to be portable, so we're back to "use Emacs". ------------------------------------------------------------------ Russell Adams RLAdams@AdamsInfoServ.com PGP Key ID: 0x1160DCB3 http://www.adamsinfoserv.com/ Fingerprint: 1723 D8CA 4280 1EC9 557F 66E8 1154 E018 1160 DCB3