From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id +PaPIRvt2WMplgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:39:55 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id iDexIBvt2WOq+wAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 01 Feb 2023 05:39:55 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7DE417874 for ; Wed, 1 Feb 2023 05:39:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pN4ti-0005AW-UU; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 23:39:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pN4th-0005AJ-Rl for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 23:39:01 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pN4tg-0005KA-1v for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 23:39:01 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:102.85.240.173]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000103A06.0000000063D9ECC5.00001636; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 21:38:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 22:59:40 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Ihor Radchenko , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <87h6w63jgg.fsf@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87h6w63jgg.fsf@localhost> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675226395; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=YpnC0Gow4dwB6fNrOVcc9Gd1CU7Y0nq/oZeirg2JSRqnQaCyqg49spXTPOc2G5sObT8BYI 5JKb8uNLxVBXCscNb6kptRbvqKmRZX2GKoch8TCirDBpZ9ozkktMQ93nnqjBf+mtpmHVfD 2PQ1jsboeTvarY6O7bT8+oUiQCKqOKSpTnWLRGCZ7T2+2RpLu2T72Ms4UKS8JvEf4Wsuni ZtEzx8Yk4YBCJ6WxH96TznIpNL01qobmDBsokE07CJEykfgLNCAITZOI5nnkRmBYWu324/ fR215/bsD6rMrNq7U999ffk9qgphScGeXAAg1cqc1KPqW4/8yKWa+WS51Wxj1A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675226395; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=ri4xpAHO86knFlTulv4CDu4bKgr91O04dlxqqIGMt78=; b=W4QOT4g05w8UV2MuM5whz/ARYw9jOMYTqImuReYBqZoho4Bze+0T4UvFvyPbqOuxfG97v+ QBy9LjpNNhTtanvDuV4CP08ZmEdJ3CVbjDHwSXEke49wVdyANhc7Pm+3DijQWS2ruTB1sk wLuEzLzHfEchrQjyNLOqEIbEt0AQdjlhRzbwOxZ8TnkYKURVGOLv2Xse9z1/904tDCRHov WQhiLH1kF/OZrGbpk9JX1zJ+JNqqgAW7HiT2jXczJr0l9YGH7ZAHaI8Pk7H2MuDzY1gX2K sBVKfiZbmM7jbytj2ri176AY7Z8vQ4BZzWYvOLLnXpGkorMc4IjlFElw1E7NNg== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.88 X-Spam-Score: -0.88 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: C7DE417874 X-TUID: k6TbyaIhBOYq * Ihor Radchenko [2023-01-31 16:46]: > >> For time ranges, we will only allow a single offset and time zone > >> specifier for both start and end times: > >> [2022-11-12 8:00-9:00+08] > >> If different time zones are necessary to specify the start/end times, > >> users can still use full timestamp range syntax > >> [2022-11-12 8:00+03]--[2022-11-12 22:00+08] > > > > I have already explained today that above calculation cannot be > > unambigous. Please verify my references and practical examples. When > > user thinks that span is X hours, the real span could be X-1 or X+1 > > This has been discussed in the previous emails. > Consider that you are running a scientific experiment around daylight > saving time change: [2022-10-29 2:15-5:15+02]. You don't care that the > government decided that the wall clock should go like 2:15 -> 2:59 -> > [CEST -> CET] 2:00 -> 2:15 -> 2:59. Physics does not care. You just need > to make sure that the experiment runs exactly 3 hours without trying to > consider the currently used TZ rules. Sorry, I cannot see how running the experiment three hours long is related to exchange of for example, appointments, or calendar events that shall be represented in possibly different time zones. It seems you have different personal purposes for time representation in Org. How about making a list, why at all are you doing it? Is it for scientific experiment that you run in your place 3 hours? Or for people travelling or exchanging times. Are you sure that telling not to care is good notion? Why not simply give up on setting up times correctly? > In contrast, writing [2022-10-29 2:15-5:15 @Europe/Berlin] is > ambiguous as it may imply both 2:15CEST-5:15CET (4 hours) or > 2:15CET-5:15CET (3 hours). Why don't you make the experiment and show how it is ambiguous? Where is the error in this comparison of Europe/Berlin time and CET time? Is daylight savings change what you expect? I am not sure and I am asking you about this. Here is practical example, is there anything wrong? How is it ambigious? 2022-10-29 02:15:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:15:00 2022-10-29 02:20:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:20:00 2022-10-29 02:25:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:25:00 2022-10-29 02:30:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:30:00 2022-10-29 02:35:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:35:00 2022-10-29 02:40:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:40:00 2022-10-29 02:45:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:45:00 2022-10-29 02:50:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:50:00 2022-10-29 02:55:00+02 | 2022-10-29 01:55:00 2022-10-29 03:00:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:00:00 2022-10-29 03:05:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:05:00 2022-10-29 03:10:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:10:00 2022-10-29 03:15:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:15:00 2022-10-29 03:20:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:20:00 2022-10-29 03:25:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:25:00 2022-10-29 03:30:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:30:00 2022-10-29 03:35:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:35:00 2022-10-29 03:40:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:40:00 2022-10-29 03:45:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:45:00 2022-10-29 03:50:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:50:00 2022-10-29 03:55:00+02 | 2022-10-29 02:55:00 2022-10-29 04:00:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:00:00 2022-10-29 04:05:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:05:00 2022-10-29 04:10:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:10:00 2022-10-29 04:15:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:15:00 2022-10-29 04:20:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:20:00 2022-10-29 04:25:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:25:00 2022-10-29 04:30:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:30:00 2022-10-29 04:35:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:35:00 2022-10-29 04:40:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:40:00 2022-10-29 04:45:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:45:00 2022-10-29 04:50:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:50:00 2022-10-29 04:55:00+02 | 2022-10-29 03:55:00 2022-10-29 05:00:00+02 | 2022-10-29 04:00:00 2022-10-29 05:05:00+02 | 2022-10-29 04:05:00 2022-10-29 05:10:00+02 | 2022-10-29 04:10:00 2022-10-29 05:15:00+02 | 2022-10-29 04:15:00 -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/