From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id oL7vOF5cxGOrSAAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 21:04:47 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id sLzhOF5cxGPkfgEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 21:04:46 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA56929610 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 21:04:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pH9ER-0000td-VC; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 15:03:55 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pH9EQ-0000rO-3q for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 15:03:54 -0500 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pH9EO-0002sM-Dl for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 15:03:53 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.8.177]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000055DB5.0000000063C45C2A.00002843; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 13:03:53 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 23:03:30 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Tim Cross Cc: Ihor Radchenko , tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: Tim Cross , Ihor Radchenko , tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org References: <63c287ca.a70a0220.4bd14.873b@mx.google.com> <87pmbh1hgx.fsf@localhost> <63c2b8e4.a70a0220.e3b6d.0051@mx.google.com> <87edrxyyeq.fsf@localhost> <87bkn1yx59.fsf@localhost> <87lem582qw.fsf@localhost> <63c32848.620a0220.dec52.1f9c@mx.google.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <63c32848.620a0220.dec52.1f9c@mx.google.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.9+54 (af2080d) (2022-11-21) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1673813086; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=WTZ7FRGc9SoaG/brPl4oYmke/Zh5A5ydWT+ycgL5Rc7jhCEC4fd5vpQMnVICy96JKMtgOc iTrgHgismt9NmXK1RMZEDynIV632vuPCxT5do7SjrjfZkfh2Z0o8IBT5OFrWfohADy6kyJ 4RCGBF/7QeSRwcZlrGu5vQzEB0ju3Uv3bci1UxYURrJbd5atcwh/Bx6KicwCKI5NvFAr/r 7y9r1vwWDwvJudgaKBJb0X/dhhLm3kjORFtTxJFeecXRqYIpIUdsD0WsqhbElnNPspXAl3 NOKHpdEpA2amEa5BjbNzLcNjcmAGDtsgd3f1vCAbjiiqYtmV8SgpWK+4PRtZaA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1673813086; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=RDfDygoVPyIQYBVTeX78GqkOvByqInjf420pI+NtjIg=; b=WLrbj6b+WehqXOMmSipW/O1Bs4/DHem7CkWbH/RcObHT01dafZ7l7clIECQnzE/zf+RbRW tZus02jAS7Ru0nO77WzO00ilpzAEqP/bYodsC0DGdLX3TKj2EpcHhpnTq/RmIr+DCPKL/+ YeugUSrTJJAwA28wXq0LfnpHcpUSRgy9qFw0zgM4iwVuOd3gsbNRNKOi/n4qivTVmYMPqZ Xz7ym7b3NLXs41KIHFE1ZDlIRKoibKX47uGXImPzgdrCI8O7BxPQ1C8FHPxJbPPiUHIlGH W2+8tMw2gLWjw/NnJTQP1EAWhOmZwAg26L0iqWekoF2U+/GWVWg8NciPokWRNQ== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Spam-Score: -2.42 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: AA56929610 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-TUID: NMju7UCSb5bj * Tim Cross [2023-01-15 01:13]: > I think I basically agree with the last statement. However, perhaps we > need to step back and ask ourselves what it is that people do want which > drives this feature request. I doubt it is simply the ability to add TZ > information to timestamps. I suspect the underlying motivation here is > to have org mode actually use this information in a meaningful way, > which essentially means all the complicated stuff I'm concerned about > and which you seem to imply we wouldn't manage anyway. It means for representation and calculations. Person in East Africa writes task to somebody in Washington, with deadline with time zone in Croatia, when notary has to sign a document for somebody in Croatia. Because there is hypothetical timezone parameter at file, or header level or timestamp level, then user in Washington can see proper time in his time zone. Representation should depend on user's local system. But how to know how to display the time, without having time zone defined in first place? It requires global timezone parameter, heading and timestamp based. Apparently it is confusing and asks for work. Sorry for that. It is something one had to think ahead of time when dealing with people all over the world. I think that any function reading timestamps should get its "bypass" to re-calculate timestamp according to specified time zone. If user Joe in East Africa wrote a meeting appointment with person in Greek by Greek timezone, and sent that appointment to Washington, USA, then person in Washington should read the time in his time zone, and would know when is meeting accurately, in how many hours for him. Greek, East African and Washington people would all see different times, but would meet accurately at same time. > To put it another way, we need to clarify what people mean when they > request the feature of timestamp support in org-mode datestamps. What > does this actually mean? Is it as simple as just being able to specify > the timezone (seems relatively easy to implement, but doens't really add > much) or is the expectation that once you have time zone information, it > will be used to do things like adjust date+time in agenda based on > change in locale or change in daylight savings status etc. I am sure that adjustments must come there. Practically, Org headings and files are easily shareable. Users in different time zones could instead plan their own, receive the agenda planned by other people, they would see it in their own calculated time zone, while other people watching same agenda, would see it in their own. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/