From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6PoJCQGuQmMHGwEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 09 Oct 2022 13:18:25 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2LM+CAGuQmNzqwAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 09 Oct 2022 13:18:25 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E0341691F for ; Sun, 9 Oct 2022 13:18:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36014 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohUK7-0007pv-R3 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2022 07:18:23 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54648) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohUJc-0007pm-QZ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2022 07:17:52 -0400 Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:40791) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ohUJa-0007AQ-Kd for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Oct 2022 07:17:52 -0400 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.239.6.155]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.3,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000000BBD14.000000006342ADDA.00000DE6; Sun, 09 Oct 2022 04:17:46 -0700 Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2022 14:16:39 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: rswgnu@gmail.com Cc: David Masterson , Samuel Wales , emacs-org list Subject: Re: Org and Hyperbole Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: rswgnu@gmail.com, David Masterson , Samuel Wales , emacs-org list References: <813D3F10-3E3C-497F-9FD8-FE0DA13C2970@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/2.2.7+37 (a90f69b) (2022-09-02) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL=0.141, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1665314304; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=NEgRAoEUc+nrqS7qOKijZwUs+XkQj3+RWxKBkGs0rOE=; b=hjiV0+SbKwIzvGvKBFv+n3TTINXDtdbcLZMulZFNHclHE7vR6AZ/CJ0/HyLyA5bfL1g6Ei vAYZBKExMeRrpj8grssc4f1eWzjN/OKiIJacBpjgC4GIm/GDi8rOH5fkHIwFpQ0GzmT4p0 GHYMU7YNrTg0W+GfWB7GeRFYI4vAjZdrpEPQhXLkx70UglTOA/fyr5LtCglWFzsWrMIW0Y 6dJbnISBIqagw7cakHJJbUV/i503Gzj2k5l5930mvff4hzLi+759hwWxue0jDN5xCHTRIz 2uccvxGnVnr7pQF0osPMo/puzi6TeEXW0LrUopIYJ414armAoQ2jPWAQRFPTOw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1665314304; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=UlYxX5gE55hD0KDTXx7dSszgdR4ukq1OExKbUavpzxDnjsjy1+8DZp+QNjzq9DRJJ1OkWH 39c/7KrP/XWtISmWEAhRH8FMT/a0QIc/C2LkQuI0fZXQ/WnW5iakXCDCNQKTHVd9dbC7Hn ig6aSMZ8CQnVJJFZBMQHbFuI/7fAGPmqC6rQBG7AaHu8gVYEwmaOL4AZsqvl17YMN70LPN lcvIVelwXqX7EHvlLZm8bSVlTCddM4fpK0bGx7tOCDJos/1WgFN8OwP78XIlPLdA2tboF6 WzqRQ0BUdBmZ1aljeXDf16fbwhGz31tVUtVFho/YXVDZl7xzKSzUD+lOuoV88A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.18 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9E0341691F X-Spam-Score: -0.18 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 6GvsMavPulkd * Robert Weiner [2022-10-08 23:55]: > Task management is a whole area separate from note taking. This was > something I was interested in many years ago but have not been able > to publish a system to implement my ideas therein. Since people > generally seem to be happy with Org's todo and agenda features, we > expect to just interact with those from Hyperbole. PLEASE: Give us more information about your ideas and your system. For me Org is only one of many lightweight markup languages, definitely now the easiest or friendly one IMHO. Asciidoc is way easier and asciidoctor implementation offers better higher level and deterministic functions for users to create documents. AsciiDoc Syntax Quick Reference | Asciidoctor Docs: https://docs.asciidoctor.org/asciidoc/latest/syntax-quick-reference/ I get better output, easier workflow with Asciidoctor and PDF rather than with Org. Sometimes I may use txt2tags and generate asciidoc. I get less problems with it, rather than with LaTeX. And I don't think that Org is proper for task management. Org is markup for me, and that is where I keep it. Tasks must be modular and separate from text files, external and editable by many means, and accessible by multiple people from multiple parts of the world. That is what various ERP, CRM systems already do for people. Org group of users are limited. There is no need to think that Org users are leading in the subject of task management, as they are not. They are troubled by too many problems, too many errors, and constant inability to actually do what they want. Just compare it to Cherrytree or Leo editor: Cherrytree - hierarchical note taking application with rich text and syntax highlighting: https://www.giuspen.com/cherrytree/ Leo programmable editor: http://leoeditor.com/ In Org we are enthusiastic. We are many unrealistic, and idealistic. That is not objective. With Org one can't assume that productivity is granted. Productivity comes from person skilled in handling its own tasks, not from the tool. Like you with Hyrolo, I guess you are using it very swift and smooth, but I do not see anybody on mailing list talking about it. Great tool with too few users. Org has too many users and also too many problems. I have no problems adding contacts to Hyrolo and searching, deleting, finding phone numbers, it works swift. Not that I use it, but without access to my database, on some remote computers in forest, that is what I like to use. I can't say that I am happy with Org agenda, far from that, in fact I never use it because I was not happy. So I made my own, and it is soooo much faster than Org agenda, because it gets it from users. So please GIVE us the list of your ideas, as it may be useful. > But for notes, yes, one needs to capture them quickly and then get > back to your former context. Later on you can process them more > fully. "Capturing" notes like some mouses or animals, I don't know if that word is appropriate. Do you people in English speaking area in world without Emacs really use the word "capturing". Org has promoted features like swift templates on how to insert new information into text files. Function skeleton-insert is since 1993 there in Emacs as one of ways how to insert in any mode new template based information. It was just not as promoted as Org mode. By promoting "capturing" ideas to be somehow connected exclusively to Org mode we lure people rather into pretty difficult environment. This way we just limit people to think that templates and quicker and streamlined note taking can't be used in other modes or text files. What a silly situation. And when I just look on the interface of M-x org-capture, I can't even believe people use that static what, Emacs-blocking screen. I can't even switch to that buffer. And I do not need tips "how to do it" as a follow up to this paragraph. I use org-protocol as one of ways to enter information to Emacs, because I use browser extension for Org protocol. But I never record anything into Org files directly. Org protocol may is described as: Intercept Calls from Emacsclient to Trigger Custom Actions Great idea, but why it should be limited to Org? So I use it to enter information straight into database by using Firefox extension: https://github.com/vifon/org-protocol-for-firefox > Although I see the great utility in having capabilities on mobile > devices, I find most apps way underpowered for constant use. I can totally agree with that statement. One good application on mobile devices that I use is simple text editor. That is where I enter notes. Then I connect mobile device to Emacs and move those notes into the database. > As Emacs becomes more usable on mobile devices, we can add more > mobile-friendly features to Hyperbole. Emacs works well in Termux in Android, Lineage OS, Replicant systems. Problem is not in Emacs which already works well in console mode. Problem is with the keyboard. Mobile devices with virtual keyboards are not suitable for advanced Emacs key bindings. -- Jean Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns: https://www.fsf.org/campaigns In support of Richard M. Stallman https://stallmansupport.org/