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From: Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com>
Cc: Maxim Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files
Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 13:30:29 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <X8YbRfblbsKnX0tr@protected.rcdrun.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87tut6uu74.fsf@localhost>

* Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-12-01 05:35]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> > * Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> [2020-11-30 12:31]:
> >> I can see that you have implemented many of the suggested commands
> >> yourself. Why don't you just propose patches extending the functionality
> >> you desire?
> >
> > Good question, I have no idea in this moment why not. Maybe I just
> > make a function that works for me and is not that easy to provide a
> > patch that enhances some Org functionality. Example is sending Org
> > tasks by email, if somebody of developers wish to do that they can
> > do. For me is concept more important than specific function. Concept
> > of being able to send any object from anywhere to anybody is more
> > important than functions. Then if developers have different concepts
> > and do not think of sending or sharing objects, then those are
> > colliding minds and different experiences. I need to put more effort
> > to write it why, how, where, what, then to write the function itself
> > that just works. That is reason why people make separate packages.
> 
> I would like to remind you that all the Emacs and org-mode development
> is only volunteer-based. As a result, people implement things they are
> interested in and they have spare time for. If the features you find
> useful are not implemented, there are at least three possibilities:
> 
> 1. Others do not use them and do not need them.
>    In such a case, you can just implement the desired functionality
>    privately.

I have packages that will be published for that. But not that I want
to engage in discussions what is usable or not. I consider
integrations necessary and known to be necessary and it is not found
in many pieces of software. It is also trivial, so if somebody wants,
may include it.

On mobile device every day I am sharing notes, images, tasks, files
without much thinking. Recent targets where I should share files are
shown automatically. Often recent people to which I have already
shared something are shown automatically. Tasks applications on mobile
phones allow sharing of tasks to other people.

Why then bother group of people that existed longer than I know Org
mode and that in 5 years did not provide any sharing capability that I
know? No need for that.

GNU Hyperbola package is way older and mature than Org mode, it has
region and buffer sharing capability on a key press or invoking a
command.

Let us say that I would propose sharing email in Org mode in the exact
way how I am doing it, that would not work. We already said that
development "does not want structure" and files should be
self-sufficient. But again contradiction is that development does use
structure, only not as foundation.

How I create and share for collaboration?

1. First thinking that person need to do a project, with the first
   task to be made for person I press F4.

   This alone would require Org developers to implement centralized
   contact management which does not exist.

   F4 would require to implement feature where Org file is expanded
   from a template that contains person's name, hyperlinks, dates, and
   various heading sections, prepared table for transactions and
   similar.

2. Then I write some tasks. When I write it, the task is assigned to
   person.

3. I press key and task is sent to that person, because underlying
   program knows which email to use, what type of task is that. I do
   not normally see email software in front of me. It is just sent
   with formatting and signature from my proper identity.

Now I should ask for proposal to implement sending it by email where
there is no central contacts database, no streamlining, where Emacs
would not know automatically which email address to choose, etc. Too
many things. Those are fundamental disagreements.

I also hold Org mode as nice outline for text editing. Keeping notes
in Org is fine but whenever note need to be related to a person I have
to relate it in such way that it is stable for future, so notes are
related in the PostgreSQL database. I must know what I wrote about
specific person at specific time related to specific other objects
accessible on a key press like F3.

While Org mode is editing structure of text there is rigid data
structure. I can assign person as Joe, or as hyperlink to anything, it
is free but that freedom does not help me. What helps is integration,
not freedom.

mutt email reader has aliases for email addresses, like I can write
"Joe" and get email address. But that is not full integration. If I
can search among 200000 email addresses in the database that would be
integration. Software may not be made for that.

If planners of a project such as Org mode do not see or do not know
that sharing of objects has been established as useful feature in
other systems, other methodologies, software, then I feel no urge
personally to propose some new features as it is not goal of that
project.

Doug Engelbart institute influenced WWW and many hypertext systems:
https://www.dougengelbart.org/content/view/110/460/#2d so if
principles are not followed and collaboration was not prime purpose
from beginning, then I leave that and I consider Org file more
destined for other purposes.

We speak of sharing heading or sharing task or assigning tasks to
people, and sharing tasks to related people and assignees. Well, I did
not start with project management with Org, I have started back in
198x something. We were using TRS-80 clone computers and before these
computers I was using a typewriter and notebooks (paper notebooks) for
project planning. Since 1995 to 1998 my project planning skills
enhanced greatly, and Org was just let us say handy extension to
scattered tasks. For project planning it is useful for me more as a
quick formatter (with errors) that exports nicely to PDF. Before I was
using LateX straight. I am transitioning and moving away from Org to
meta level editing and I will not think of exporting more then a key
press.

If Org already has many features as envisioned by Doug Engelbart, and
there are mobile devices around us, and many applications already
share notes, images, files, contacts around, then it seem to me like
going through a wall. And I do remember asking and proposing that
somewhere 2015, begin 2016 on IRC. Because we have non-organization of
many people from end users to developers and sponsors we cannot get
routed properly to right person who would be handling the thing.

If nobody wants to send task by email when feature has been already
proposed why should I again send it same mailing list.

Just think about impressions on other users, as I am not
important. There are many blocks in using Org. It is software made for
advanced users.

CRM is Customer Relationship Management, it better be called People
Relationship Management. It is a method, not software, although people
refer too often to software. And almost every such software has task
sharing, note sharing, case sharing abilities and collaboration. And I
have used it for years before I even found Org mode. Org mode never
replaced what I used. The Org files became just one node to one bigger
senior structure. And I use various other files as well, like PDF,
images, where all of them are part of senior structure.

From that viewpoint of looking at Org file as elementary object if I
am surprised by people's design that implied to me they do not share
viewpoint of sharing, so there is no personal motivation to do
something what is not wanted or not planned from ground up.

> 2. Others would find the feature useful, but they never thought of
> it.

I do not think that it is proper after 5 years experience with Org
mode. It may be usable to small group and they can anyway copy and
paste into email. I have my system where I can send a fax straight
from Emacs, send SMS, send email, initiate a call and record all those
actions for future and relate them to people. Personally, from
proposing single function I would not have any use. As again I would
not have use without environment such as central database of companies
and people and very quick workflow.

Many times Emacs developers helped in solving bugs and I could finally
get database editing features. It did not work before. One could not
move from a buffer of editing to other buffer when editing a string in
full window. Several times improvements were made when I proposed or
discovered a bug.

> In any scenario, it would be useful to send feature request/patch to
> this mailing list:
> 
>  1. You will let others know about your ideas
>  2. You might get new ideas what can improve your workflow or even find
>     some superior approach that makes your feature obsolete
>  3. You can get the feature into org-mode, likely improved in the
>     process

From these discussion there will be place for people to read, and all
discussions can be easily re-formatted into EmacsWiki or
websites. I can make a meta level website that explains on handling
projects, and tasks. If I find a bug I am reporting anyway.

> Important note: it is not very useful to dump all the ideas into a
> single email in the above scenario. The suggestion would more likely be
> noticed if one idea/feature is limited to a single thread.

When doing anything, one shall have bigger picture in mind. So I do
when we are discussing. It may all become a published set of planning
that not only Org mode would find useful but other systems as well.

We are in progress and we are in a mailing list in collaborative
environment, great thing. By doing this we are influencing outcomes in
future. Other people will built upon ideas.

I have got personal use as anti-mode. The references collected in last
weeks helped me realize that scattered task management is wrong way to
go. I had "tasks", "simple-todos" simpler than tasks, Org files,
various files and that sums to thousands of pieces of information not
necessarily nicely related to other objects. So I have transitioned
and removed those and created generic hyperdocuments that may be
related to anything, that may also keep tasks and can create Org files
on the fly. No more thinking "where is the Org file", I have connected
the dots and related it to meanings so that I think only of meanings
and relations to locate files.

Next step will be to exterminate those parts in Org files that
represent transactions and tasks and move such to relational
database. Org files without tasks and without relations can be well
used for preparation of instructional books and group knowledge as
that is how I use it. Until of it gets transitioned into higher level
hyperdocuments on which a group may collaborate. Then Org file and
also parts of the Org file become an elementary object in a
mixed-object environment.

It takes about 15 seconds to make an Org file on the fly from 19700
various objects.

Jean


  reply	other threads:[~2020-12-01 10:36 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 87+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-11-22 10:01 Gerardo Moro
2020-11-22 10:09 ` Jean Louis
2020-11-22 17:35   ` Berry, Charles via General discussions about Org-mode.
2020-11-22 18:33     ` Jean Louis
2020-11-22 19:03     ` Gerardo Moro
2020-11-22 19:15       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-23  3:59         ` Gerardo Moro
2020-11-23  5:21           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-23  8:12             ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-23  8:40               ` Gerardo Moro
2020-11-23  9:11                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-23  9:14                   ` Gerardo Moro
2020-11-23  9:14               ` Jean Louis
2020-11-24  4:07                 ` Gerardo Moro
2020-11-24  7:26                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-24  7:23                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-24  9:28                   ` Gerardo Moro
2020-11-24  9:57                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-24 16:26                       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-25  3:41                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-25  5:36                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-25  7:15                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-25 11:20                               ` Browser org-capture bookmarklet Jean Louis
2020-11-25 12:51                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-25 14:12                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-25 14:50                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-12-02  9:07                               ` Bring up a screen giving option to open a series of orgmode files Jean Louis
2020-12-02  9:53                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-02 10:19                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-12-02  9:24                               ` Jean Louis
2020-12-02  9:56                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-02 10:14                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-24 17:41                       ` Jean Louis
2020-12-02 10:17                       ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-27  2:40                   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-27  8:15                     ` Alan Schmitt
2020-11-27 12:04                       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-28 16:12                         ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-28 18:10                           ` Jean Louis
2020-11-28 15:51                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-28 17:59                       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-30  9:35                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-11-30 10:45                           ` Jean Louis
2020-12-01  2:38                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-01 10:30                               ` Jean Louis [this message]
2020-11-30 17:08                         ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-11-30 18:33                           ` Jean Louis
2020-12-02 16:41                             ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-12-02 17:24                               ` Jean Louis
2020-12-09 13:00                               ` Jean Louis
2020-12-09 15:03                                 ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-12-09 16:32                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-12-09 16:49                                     ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-12-10  0:04                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-11  6:54                                       ` Jean Louis
2020-12-11 14:40                                         ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-12-11 15:22                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-12  3:22                                             ` Jean Louis
2020-12-13  0:42                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-13 15:00                                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-12-14 12:58                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-14 19:08                                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-12-14 22:27                                                       ` TRS-80
2020-12-14 22:33                                                         ` Jean Louis
2020-12-15  4:42                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-15  5:00                                                           ` Jean Louis
2020-12-16  2:59                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-16  4:05                                                               ` Tom Gillespie
2020-12-18 12:35                                                               ` Jean Louis
2020-12-16  1:48                                                           ` TRS-80
2020-12-16 12:40                                                           ` Maxim Nikulin
2020-12-12  2:49                                           ` Jean Louis
2020-12-13  0:48                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-13 15:13                                               ` Jean Louis
2020-12-13 18:02                                                 ` Christopher Dimech
2020-12-13 20:31                                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-12-14  0:34                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2020-12-14  0:34                                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-12-14  0:35                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]                     ` <874kl7172r.fsf@localhost>
2020-11-30 10:51                       ` Jean Louis
2020-11-22 21:23       ` Berry, Charles via General discussions about Org-mode.
2020-11-23  9:52 ` Diego Zamboni
2020-11-23 21:04   ` Jean Louis
2020-11-24  9:53 ` John Sturdy
2020-11-24 10:04   ` Detlef Steuer
2020-11-24 13:44     ` Jean Louis
2020-11-24 14:38   ` Jean Louis

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