From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id GOpbBlqGsV+GDwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:49:46 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 8PHaAVqGsV8TfQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:49:46 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2C2D9401D0 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:49:45 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58910 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keO1w-0000vM-Kp for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:49:44 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50464) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keNxQ-0006ky-BA for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:45:06 -0500 Received: from static.rcdrun.com ([95.85.24.50]:37771) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keNxO-0007TC-3E for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 14:45:03 -0500 Received: from localhost ([::ffff:41.202.241.56]) (AUTH: PLAIN admin, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by static.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 00000000002C0010.000000005FB1853B.000070A5; Sun, 15 Nov 2020 19:44:59 +0000 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2020 18:11:24 +0300 From: Jean Louis To: Gustavo Barros Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Message-ID: References: <665024.1605436621@apollo2.minshall.org> <87y2j2u9g7.fsf@gmail.com> <87lff2d68j.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lff2d68j.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/2.0 (3d08634) (2020-11-07) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=95.85.24.50; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=static.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/15 14:44:45 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -2 X-Spam_score: -0.3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06=1.592, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Greg Minshall , David Rogers , Karl Voit , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Karl Voit Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 1.99 X-TUID: qntMLhP+MJH+ * Gustavo Barros [2020-11-15 17:51]: > > I do, thank you for reminder. Us in plural are sometimes teachers or > > mentors who educate other people who are supposed to edit Org files in > > most simple manner, and those people will never be able to write to > > this list to find out which option where, not even to know about > > indentation things. When default is introduced then all people > > following an educator has to turn off default. They will not even know > > why. One default introduced can cause butterfly effect. > > > > Also a fellow teacher here. As you, I'm trying to transmit this information > to you and others, because I find it useful. Nobody needs to use `M-RET', > `C-RET' and `C-j'. You are right, I am totally in agreement that it is useful as a feature. In general I am using electric-indent mode. Though that it is introduced by default is arguable what can be seen in responses here. > > General design of user interface should not conquer their habits > > unless substantial amount of users have demanded it so. > > And how exactly would maintainers know that? Do you claim to be speaking on > their (substantial amount of users) behalf? In this specific case it is easy to know what was the condition before and what is condition after introduction of that new feature. Somebody offered reasoning and I have seen 3-4 people declaring that function works OK. Super fine. But that is not reasoning enough to change some default behavior of a program for maybe hundreds of thousands of users. Better reasoning could be to ask on the mailing list what people think about it and how they are using indentation as that way more information may be obtained if such or any new feature would be more useful or contraproductive for users. You ask them. > Please, don't confuse. I said you should *not* use (the command) > `org-indent-region' if you were systematically manually overriding > indentation defaults. I recommended to set the user option > `org-adapt-indentation' to nil, which seems to be the desired value > for most of the manifestations on this thread. Maybe I made a mistake, as that is exactly what I did set. I am using Org for some years, so of course it came to me very surprising. Person who just start using it recently with such defaults should rarely find it awkward as person learns about it and assumes it is how it is.