From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Carsten Dominik Subject: Re: would take more than an org-mode strip-down. Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 08:00:28 +0200 Message-ID: References: <92B42F15-B849-473D-9E4C-F513A5DD80E8@me.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:50912) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9WYF-0002Rq-KT for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 02:26:29 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9WYD-00079I-L9 for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 02:26:27 -0400 Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com ([74.125.82.169]:36085) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R9WYD-00079B-56 for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 30 Sep 2011 02:26:25 -0400 Received: by wyf22 with SMTP id 22so845538wyf.0 for ; Thu, 29 Sep 2011 23:26:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <92B42F15-B849-473D-9E4C-F513A5DD80E8@me.com> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: James Levine Cc: Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Dear James, thanks a lot for your thoughts on Org-mode. I admit that I had to read them several times to fully understand what you are saying. While you anchor your argument on the documenation (be it overabundant or not the right one), I think you are making a number of much deeper points. I'll try to write a few thoughts back, and maybe we can get a good discussion going. 1. Startup difficulties for non-EMacs users =20 One of the fundamental aspect you discuss is the difficulty to enter the Org-mode world as a general computer user, possibly not familiar Emacs. Today's world expects programs to be self-explanatory, if possible without any documentation reading at all (no, I am not saying that this is what *you personally* expect, I mean in general). In the world of iOS, it is standard that one can download an application and at least get started with it by playfully launching it. Manuals and Documentation are generally disliked. This also has to with the fleeing nature of peoples use of programs. It is common to spend more time looking for a tool or program than the time one uses it before discarding or at least ignoring it. I have many apps on my iPod Touch which I have downloaded, used once for a very short time, and then not ever again. So if there is a 70% chance that I will ditch the program after a week, the cost of reading documentation is extremely high.=20 Mind you, I do think that this is (today) a legitimate expectation. However, a user with this kind of expectation would be very difficult to make feel at home in Org-mode. The main startup problem is already that is runs in Emacs, and a good new version of Emacs is not frequently part of a computer system for "normal" people. Org-mode really lives in Emacs. If flourishes on so many ideas that are deeply ingrained in Emacs. So much of Org-mode use is quite obvious when you already use and love Emacs. The tags issue you mention is a great example. Emacs solves these things using "completion" (see also Eric Fraga's post in this thread). An Emacs user automatically tries to type a keyword like this by typing a few letters and then hitting M-TAB in order to do completion. This is something the spine does for an Emacs user, no brain required. Obviously this will be very hard for a person that comes with a different expectation to this program. And yes, this could be helped with putting more GUI-like elements into Org files. For example, we could make tags look like buttons and let the user click on them in order to change this. But, I and many Emacs users would see this as a distraction, a detour. We even do have this feature, but it is not turned on by default. I think that the real issue here is that Org-mode was not (originally) intended for "normal" people. It is a geeks program, and we take our pride from making vi users (vi is another programmers editor) jealous enough so that they will create a clone of the program. We have not even begun to cater for another audience, and this is the thing you, James, are running up against. The website we have is not aimed at the general audience. The fact that people like you even know about the program and consider using it speaks for the success Org-mode has been. If we, as the Org-mode community, would like to draw in a new class of people, the website would have to be changed. We'd need a basic page, with only a link to the geek stuff. And the installation instruction should be: a) Download and install Emacs b) Create a file with extension ".org" and edit it in Emacs. i.e. no links to how to install the latest version etc etc. Russel Adam has pointed (earlier in this thread) to his intro video for Windows users, this has the right spirit, but still assumes users might want to update Org-mode. You might have gotten off to a better start with such an entry page - but that does not mean you'd like to program because it would not work intuitively at first sight. 2. Outline as the basic paradigm Another issue you address is that for you it is not true that all ideas begin to take form through an Outline. Because Outlines still have a linear structure. I can totally see where you are coming from. However, what is the alternative? Mindmaps? Or just a piece of paper? =20 The reason why, for me, outlines are the best approach is because there are so easily restructured. The outline structure inherently cuts the information into many small pieces, and Org-mode excels in pushing these pieces around (we call this "Structure Editing" and "Refiling"). This allows me to start just with a brain dump, and the to organize so that things make sense. This may not work for the creative process of an artist, but for starting and organizing a project, I think it works amazingly well. You talk about instructions on "bridging the free-association, brain storming, linear thinking, mind-mapping, UML, media files and inspiration, concepts directly into an Org-mode file would be of help", and that you might be able to do something here. I am all ears. Mind you, Org-mode will only link to media files and such things. It is not an Evernote, wherein you easily dump all kinds of file types. 3. File structure and letting other people be you assistant I agree that Org-mode will not be easy for an assistant to open up in you absence, if that assistant is not trained in Emacs/Org-mode. A program like Things is *much* better for this work flow. It is important to make the distinction that Org-mode is not a stand-alone application that you double-clock and then you are in your environment. The org-mode file with your projects is but one document. You can, of course put this file on the desktop and double-click it to launch Emacs and make it look at that file (setup will be required to make this work, I am afraid). With kind regards - Carsten Dominik On 27.9.2011, at 19:04, James Levine wrote: > Greetings, >=20 > As an expert end-user but outside the computer science field, I=92ve = felt there to be a high cost of entry for working in org-mode. I like = the idea very much, as I am trying to strip down to an Autofocus system = and take a more intuitive, frictionless approach. Because I=92m not = following the play-by-play on the gnu boards, I thought I=92d zoom out = and tell you what a consumer experience is like: >=20 > 1) It=92s not that there isn=92t enough documentation, it=92s that = there=92s too much of it. > Imagine that setting up a wordpress database is probably too = much for the average person. You go to wordpress.org (and at this point = you=92d already need to read the fine print or you=92d probably point to = wordpress.com) and the button simply tells you to download =93here=94. = Now what? >=20 > In other words, if you want to expand popularity among = end-users, not coders, there needs to be a middle ground: the visual = step-by-step needs to be uncluttered by additional description. = Org-mode is further obscured by the fact that other services, a text = editor and such need to be pointed to as well in the =93getting started = process." I need to know why I=92m being forwarded to an external web = page or why I need to read on between each download link, or how to keep = track of each link if each one is taking me to a separate page. You = wouldn=92t want someone telling you the history of every landmark that = you passed if they were giving you driving instructions, would you? The = verbose approach doesn=92t actually help retention, it floods it. The = gnu support community, like this email, is very heavily text-based. >=20 > 2) Some things are just better with a gui. > I=92m referring specifically to the more popularized use of tags = or =93keywords.=94 Most all the file management clients fail at this = somewhere. You are requiring people to be literate, as in secondary = school spelling-NOT culture, not just in a single instance of clarity, = but in a manner that can be consistently repeated, while you=92re = catering to an audience that probably has a higher than average = proportion of dyslexics, autistics, and college drop-outs in its midst.=20= >=20 > Furthermore, tagging conventions are easy to break, and most End-Users = won=92t know to instill them to begin with. =93Have I been using the = plural of my common and collective nouns? What about that time I = hashtagged a task to myself in my email and I put the tag in the Subject = heading? Did I spell it the same way my tags were set up back on my = desktop?=94 It=92s too easy to orphan tags, spell them wrong, flip a p = with a q. Without a pull up, cash-register-like cheat sheet that lets = you touch the tags that you already made, one will leave a trail of junk = mark-up. Not to mention, free tagging does not endorse a constrained = vocabulary as it would, say, if you were trying to figure out what kind = of lettuce someone was buying and you worked the register. I=92m also = inclined to believe that crossing something out with my finger, or = putting a check in a checkbox is more intuitive and less prone to error = than managing "[x]=94s in a document. >=20 > 3) the 2nd problem ties in with this. Without a constrained tagging = vocabulary and other conventions, an org-mode task system is not that = easy to subscribe to when trying to encourage a team to get on board. = The list is not inherently intuitive to all end-users. What is logic to = one person is not logic to the next. (This may come as a surprise to = many coders). >=20 > 4) The master org-mode file will get lost in the shuffle. My litmus = test for a good file management system is =93if I=92m sick or thankfully = on a beach that day, can everyone else to whom my work pertains, = understand for themselves how to incorporate what they need from me?=94 = Are my naming conventions clear? Are my directory structures clear? Can = people find them on their own, or are they going to call me while I=92m = trying to enjoy the beach? Can I effectively be a =93ghost in the = machine=94 for my institution? Or have I made people dependent upon me = for the petty fact that my workflows are not understood by anyone else?=20= >=20 > Again, feeding off point 3, org-mode does little to instill good = file management habits. I do appreciate that the plain text approach = builds off simplicity rather than the adhered complexity of a database. = Nonetheless, if I open up =93Things=94, for example (I don=92t use it = myself), as an app to keep my tasks, I know there=92s a central = repository for these stray little database entry =93tasks=94. If I=92m = out of the office, I can tell whoever is working on my assignments to = open up =93Things,=94 or I can share this with them. Because org-mode = doesn=92t reinforce where files are saved to or how many files are = accessed for my various projects, there=92s plenty of wiggle room for = bad file management habits to come into play. Instead of telling my = colleague to open =93Things=94, I need to tell them, "look in my = documents folder, open this file with this app. When you=92re done with = this by 1p, I saved the task list for the catering event this evening in = my dropbox. Look under documents, Jim=92s stuff." You see where this is = going.=20 >=20 > An org-mode text document is just too flimsy to stand alone in the sea = of files on a computer. That=92s why evernote is successful-it=92s a = more orderly place for scraps. People used to muck up folders and drag = stuff to their desktop with the same caliber of content. If you held = your desktop as sacred, or your Emacs platform, what then happens when = these other =93temporary=94 odds and ends nonetheless compete with your = focus?=20 >=20 > 5) I don=92t subscribe to the notion that all ideas begin to take form = through an Outline. Outlines were something pounded into lots of heads = as kids, and they work for some and not for others. To me, they are far = too linear of an invention to trust with germinating ideas and projects. = My outline skills are epically good, but I still don=92t find the = outline as the key tool for repurposing and leveraging divergent ideas = (or for note-taking for that matter). And again, with an awareness = management system like org-mode, how would you effectively create an = Outline for Everything? Would that be any easier to navigate than the = index card that I made just for today in my back pocket? Then to play = the provocateur, if I can=92t create an Outline for Everything how many = little baskets of Anythings do I want to enforce in my life? Or should I = just start with my work? (then what happens to the rest of my life? = Should I use refrigerator magnets?) Where do I put these separate = Outlines if I can=92t look in the same place at any time for them? How = do they fit in with each other? The mobile implementation of org-mode = thus far further confuses the matter-it places these divergent files in = a file browser. How does that actually help me work the system? What = about a front end? >=20 > Perhaps some instruction on bridging the free-association, brain = storming, linear thinking, mind-mapping, UML, media files and = inspiration, concepts directly into an Org-mode file would be of help. = If I understood org-mode, I might even be the person to do it. Many = ideas will never see a formal outline first (even if the concept of an = outline latently exists)-only my software design documents or other = specification sheets would show through with such formality. >=20 > Please tell me if and where these points will be addressed, as their a = slim chance of my renavigating to the live thread where I found your = email (see point 1). Hope this message is in the right hands. I=92m = incredibly grateful for this line of communication and for the work you = are doing, and I want to make this work. >=20 > James Levine-East Village, NYC