From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Diego Zamboni Subject: Re: General advice beyond Org Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 13:44:20 +0200 Message-ID: References: <7dc580d0ea76c21328dc586ffadb5499@openmail.cc> <441378060.337754.1526627562985@webmail.appsuite.proximus.be> <3c1619129a29ec2327609496f73fb57a@openmail.cc> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_34E1CF89-9A5E-461B-B4D5-F1C4E6009866" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:38380) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJdoH-0006kx-RA for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 07:44:37 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJdoC-00081F-3D for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 07:44:33 -0400 Received: from mail-wm0-x22b.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c09::22b]:37738) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fJdoB-0007yb-IW for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 18 May 2018 07:44:27 -0400 Received: by mail-wm0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id l1-v6so14646400wmb.2 for ; Fri, 18 May 2018 04:44:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3c1619129a29ec2327609496f73fb57a@openmail.cc> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: edgar@openmail.cc Cc: Diego Zamboni , emacs-orgmode , "S. Champailler" --Apple-Mail=_34E1CF89-9A5E-461B-B4D5-F1C4E6009866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Edgar, As in many other contexts, it=E2=80=99s important to keep the big = picture in mind. As a grad student, is your goal to learn about your = field, to do interesting work/research, and to eventually graduate? Or = is it to defend your ideals and use the software you like? If it=E2=80=99s= the second, by all means the software you use should be a central = consideration (to the point of looking for other places of study, as = suggested in your original post). But if it=E2=80=99s the first (as it = should, IMO), then the central considerations change: is your professor = good/nice/competent (insert your own criteria here)? Does she foster = your work/research in productive ways? Does she give you good challenges = and research topics? Only you can answer those questions. You can always compromise. Not all of us get to use only the tools we = like all day long. In my case, I like my job very much, despite the fact = that I have to use tools like Exchange, Sharepoint and Jira. But at = home, during my free time, I get to code and use whatever tools I want = (e.g. Emacs, org-mode, Elvish, Hammerspoon). I get to use some of them = at work too, but I am aware that I have to stick to the accepted = standards of communication and collaboration with others. =46rom what you say, the tools your advisor uses are the = recognized/accepted ones for doing the work. You could try to challenge = this status quo, given enough time and energy. But again, think about = what your goals are. You have to choose your battles. In any case, after = you graduate, you can go on an be much more selective about (or even, = define yourself) the tools with which you work. As a former grad student myself, I can give you two pieces of wisdom I = received over the years, one from my Ph.D. advisor, and one from one of = my colleagues. Both express the same feeling: =E2=80=9CYou may think now that getting your Ph.D. is the goal, but = it=E2=80=99s only the beginning. The Ph.D. only opens the door for = whatever you want to do next=E2=80=9D =E2=80=9CThe goal of a Ph.D. is to finish it=E2=80=9D All the best, =E2=80=94Diego > On 18 May 2018, at 10:10, edgar@openmail.cc wrote: >=20 > On 2018-05-18 07:12, S. Champailler wrote: >> Be aware that free software is politcally loaded. It's just not a >> matter of having the right or best tools, it' sometimes a question of >> ideal, that is something that is *very* hard to negociate about... >> Moreover, if the people you work with use, say Word, it's pretty = tough >> to bring in, say Latex. Because you'll disrupt the organisation of = the >> team. >> In the case of emacs, though, things are easier : it's made to work >> with text files and that is quite compatible with any other >> proprietary software. You won't affect anybody's job with that. >> Here at my job, I don't control any of the software I use (I have to >> use Oracle, Windows, Skype), but I can choose the software that *I* >> use for myself. So it's a balance. >> Changing other's mind, or methods is super hard, what you experience >> is just the normal. It'd be nice to know why your advisor rejects = free >> software equivalents (lack of features ? fear of legal battles ? >> organisational ...) >> Stefan >=20 > Merci, Stefan. I have tried to understand her point, and I can dissect = it into: >=20 > 1. She does not see the advantage of having to learn how to use = anything else. It works well for her, why change and waste time on doing = it? >=20 > 2. She likes and is used to the "features" of the software (today, I = discovered that one of these is the so-called "track changes"; I swear I = have tried to introduce her to Git, not that she cares). >=20 > 3. I think that she is used to the interface. >=20 > 4. She says (and I have no reason to question) that the whole = department uses the proprietary software that she uses. It is an = imposition to others (including her) to ask them to use something = different. >=20 > It is only when we have to collaborate directly that the issue arises. = I guess that it's a similar situation as you are having (programming? = she does not care, I can do whatever I want; publication abstract? she = wants a DOCX or DOC). What I find unfathomable is that I can produce the = format that she needs (even with style) with free software (thanks = community!), but what I perceive as her reluctance to my software (or = just plain miscommunication) prevents her from informing me or me = understanding what exactly it is that she considers important. In other = words, she does not seem to want to deal with it in any way. >=20 > I'm sorry, I didn't want to make this very long. I hope that I = explained myself. >=20 > The count goes like this (so that everyone knows that I am listening, = the count is by far the least important): > - Yield partially (1) :: You will have to work with proprietary = software in some way, but not always. > - There is no escape (1) :: You will have to work with proprietary = software >=20 > ------------------------------------------------- >=20 > ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator to keep your email out = of the NSA's hands! > $24.95 ONETIME Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features! 15GB disk! No = bandwidth quotas! > Commercial and Bulk Mail Options! =20 --Apple-Mail=_34E1CF89-9A5E-461B-B4D5-F1C4E6009866 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Edgar,

As in many = other contexts, it=E2=80=99s important to keep the big picture in mind. = As a grad student, is your goal to learn about your field, to do = interesting work/research, and to eventually graduate? Or is it to = defend your ideals and use the software you like? If it=E2=80=99s the = second, by all means the software you use should be a central = consideration (to the point of looking for other places of study, as = suggested in your original post). But if it=E2=80=99s the first (as it = should, IMO), then the central considerations change: is your professor = good/nice/competent (insert your own criteria here)? Does she foster = your work/research in productive ways? Does she give you good challenges = and research topics? Only you can answer those questions.

You can always = compromise. Not all of us get to use only the tools we like all day = long. In my case, I like my job very much, despite the fact that I have = to use tools like Exchange, Sharepoint and Jira. But at home, during my = free time, I get to code and = use whatever tools I want (e.g. Emacs, org-mode, = Elvish, Hammerspoon).  I get to use some of them at work too, but I = am aware that I have to stick to the accepted standards of communication = and collaboration with others.

=46rom what you say, the tools your = advisor uses are the recognized/accepted ones for doing the work. You = could try to challenge this status quo, given enough time and energy. = But again, think about what your goals are. You have to choose your = battles. In any case, after you graduate, you can go on an be much more = selective about (or even, define yourself) the tools with which you = work.

As a = former grad student myself, I can give you two pieces of wisdom I = received over the years, one from my Ph.D. advisor, and one from one of = my colleagues. Both express the same feeling:

  • =E2=80=9CYou may think now that getting your Ph.D. is the = goal, but it=E2=80=99s only the beginning. The Ph.D. only opens the door = for whatever you want to do next=E2=80=9D
  • =E2=80=9CThe = goal of a Ph.D. is to finish it=E2=80=9D

All the best,

=E2=80=94Diego


On 18 May 2018, at 10:10, edgar@openmail.cc = wrote:

On 2018-05-18 07:12, S. Champailler wrote:
Be aware that free = software is politcally loaded. It's just not a
matter of = having the right or best tools, it' sometimes a question of
ideal, that is something that is *very* hard to negociate = about...
Moreover, if the people you work with use, say = Word, it's pretty tough
to bring in, say Latex. Because = you'll disrupt the organisation of the
team.
In the case of emacs, though, things are easier : it's made = to work
with text files and that is quite compatible with = any other
proprietary software. You won't affect anybody's = job with that.
Here at my job, I don't control any of the = software I use (I have to
use Oracle, Windows, Skype), but = I can choose the software that *I*
use for myself. So it's = a balance.
Changing other's mind, or methods is super = hard, what you experience
is just the normal. It'd be nice = to know why your advisor rejects free
software equivalents = (lack of features ? fear of legal battles ?
organisational = ...)
Stefan

Merci,= Stefan. I have tried to understand her point, and I can dissect it = into:

1. She does not see the advantage of = having to learn how to use anything else. It works well for her, why = change and waste time on doing it?

2. She = likes and is used to the "features" of the software (today, I discovered = that one of these is the so-called "track changes"; I swear I have tried = to introduce her to Git, not that she cares).

3. I think that she is used to the interface.
4. She says (and I have no reason to question) that the = whole department uses the proprietary software that she uses. It is an = imposition to others (including her) to ask them to use something = different.

It is only when we have to = collaborate directly that the issue arises. I guess that it's a similar = situation as you are having (programming? she does not care, I can do = whatever I want; publication abstract? she wants a DOCX or DOC). What I = find unfathomable is that I can produce the format that she needs (even = with style) with free software (thanks community!), but what I perceive = as her reluctance to my software (or just plain miscommunication) = prevents her from informing me or me understanding what exactly it is = that she considers important. In other words, she does not seem to want = to deal with it in any way.

I'm sorry, I = didn't want to make this very long. I hope that I explained myself.

The count goes like this (so that everyone = knows that I am listening, the count is by far the least important):
- Yield partially (1) :: You will have to work with = proprietary software in some way, but not always.
- There = is no escape (1) :: You will have to work with proprietary software

-------------------------------------------------

ONLY AT VFEmail! - Use our Metadata Mitigator = to keep your email out of the NSA's hands!
$24.95 ONETIME = Lifetime accounts with Privacy Features!  15GB disk! No bandwidth = quotas!
Commercial and Bulk Mail Options!  

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