From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id yHHxH5lssl92MwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:12:09 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id mILJG5lssl8PJgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:12:09 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72629404C6 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:12:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33410 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kedMd-0001uR-7o for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:12:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:54874) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kedLA-0001DC-O6 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:10:38 -0500 Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::134]:46901) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kedL4-0006an-Ep for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:10:36 -0500 Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id v144so24715381lfa.13 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:10:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=e34yKQqAuD9xsDyCgfep2wmwV345RlV/BOoJu/Fii1o=; b=PFvKmAld9VGhJjDUfrLevQDoH2Pa/itJvC7SVUuM2LzDjR03RsgZvEVpEpDkDxn5jy dmsNjsInLdS0kUpMIkQbZ21LKvAJN0IJCuuffCS900EmC9Uv+Oi0o+njWhr3DtUEPB/q tIk2jWI/Aa/55vRaY7/f9+lm2Tlq6dObDOPmD3HS9/AqjxVHdPQh7Jk8/oK6c+TsEp4L EwJd3GHsu8w8Wi7WY92ft3ubd9Q7Q3vdayPgd1hWuSh1OWfkmEVQ/mUhVJp3XVneuAtj tpw4K7F0fCX5nV+xBk/eOQTg7LwHg5hu86h71+YPkTtEiSWw+QhXWVj5rOlPjEy5zcUe /jyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=e34yKQqAuD9xsDyCgfep2wmwV345RlV/BOoJu/Fii1o=; b=Mnz11deni/hYeIfX0FdO5OL1VWhpW6HBnT4J5b559Y0lMdekNEkFLEVrkLW3rhYgzb 7gmuc3Kh8PgOVUTV4dRhpiZtZUfb2Nhur0Ztk/zrVUnMN7yR8gQhn71cBilFZeFyCvEv ok7zOAw7CQr7Lo7U1HFF9r3x6Tt3widqy7qzTiBOQ7oXG0sQfISjHwTQ1J3bgcHPGl1J lFB4JMOMsjxLKzWp+mtF45Ru0toLnAljhG6rr0H/G6ComzwoNg+yN3hZPD/Gu3eteu0m 0y6LdXcnKVc1aIgMd5UIhgOss4+P8W68GYke5bQZCoe+SMIlKIz7MvjaQojqnHyemEoK 9Otw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531Zc4NETwH0huG6WlZNQAyWnmwviM5QfS8QdNF0l+O3Np/75XtG beJSwWSz7Bpz9axNwPl7oIJpg+Powh0v6swrcUY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyC4W8mi9FgqS+BwXAfC3wANQNG2ngFt57zY0llMiHaZZkgBO2vUpl5TjD6RYhVsh2XPFHga7bIbd6VMKn9ERY= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4209:: with SMTP id y9mr5650084lfh.229.1605528626741; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 04:10:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <877dqlby74.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <877dqlby74.fsf@gmail.com> From: Bill Burdick Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 14:10:15 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? To: Tim Cross Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007945b305b43843eb" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::134; envelope-from=bill.burdick@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x134.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: org-mode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=PFvKmAld; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-TUID: clGQQHa8Uhc7 --0000000000007945b305b43843eb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 8:43 AM Tim Cross wrote: > So essentially, this change has been made to make org-mode consistent > with the rest of emacs which enabled electric-indent by default in Emacs > 24. this is a good thing. Org should be consistent with other modes. Any > differences are likely to be the source of confusion and bug reports. > Hi Tim, Consistency is good but when people have been using org-mode for 10+ years get a fundamental behavior change (like when you hit enter) through an update it can be confusing. Perhaps old behavior should be preserved by default for current org users but the new behavior adopted for new installs. Maybe a heuristic something like this would work: 1) when org-mode starts, it could check to see if there are any existing customizations at all -- if there are, the user has used org before 2) if org-adapt-indentation is not currently customized, customize it to nil Or something like that. This should preserve the old behavior for old org users but use the new behavior for new users (except for old users with fresh emacs installs but maybe this is good enough). -- Bill --0000000000007945b305b43843eb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 8:43 AM Tim Cross= <theophilusx= @gmail.com> wrote:
So essentially, this change has been m= ade to make org-mode consistent
with the rest of emacs which enabled electric-indent by default in Emacs 24. this is a good thing. Org should be consistent with other modes. Any differences are likely to be the source of confusion and bug reports.

Hi Tim,

Consistency= is good but when people have been using org-mode for 10+ years get a funda= mental behavior change (like when you hit enter) through an update it can b= e confusing. Perhaps old behavior should be preserved by default for curren= t org users but the new behavior adopted for new installs.

Maybe a heuristic something like this would work:

1) when org-mode starts, it could check to see if there are any ex= isting=C2=A0customizations at all -- if there are, the user has used org be= fore
2) if org-adapt-indentation is not currently customized, cus= tomize it to nil

Or something like that.

This should preserve the old behavior for old org users but= use the new behavior for new users (except for old users with fresh emacs = installs but maybe this is good enough).


-- Bill
--0000000000007945b305b43843eb--