From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Texas Cyberthal Subject: Re: org-startup-truncated default should be nil [legibility 2/6] Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 05:21:55 +0800 Message-ID: References: <87wo905gpe.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <871rr858cs.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <871rr83qxn.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <87v9oj3n4p.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35016) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1izobb-0002nX-QZ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 16:22:37 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1izobY-0000ys-Tg for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 16:22:35 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-x32d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32d]:39218) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1izobY-0000ub-O0 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 16:22:32 -0500 Received: by mail-ot1-x32d.google.com with SMTP id 77so69797oty.6 for ; Thu, 06 Feb 2020 13:22:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87v9oj3n4p.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: "Fraga, Eric" Cc: "emacs-orgmode@gnu.org" > I get this. My own approach is to simply use - at the start of the line and then each of these demi-paragraphs becomes a list item which are wrapped nicely (whether with visual or fill mode). The cost of this approach is that one can't distinguish between demi-paragraphs and actual bullet points. I used both in my prior email. I'd prefer to use \\ instead. Unlike the - prefix, appending \\ doesn't require anticipation that the line will be followed by another demi-paragraph. However, it's ugly and distracting. The problem is that the normie-noob bootstrapper is unlikely to know either trick. He will probably wind up using visual-line-mode once he Googles his frustration over the strange line truncation, and then he won't be able to return to the start of demi-paragraphs with org-beginning-of-line, even if he knew to prefix a "-". > Does for me. Maybe I've customized something... that's the problem with a .emacs file that has elements that date back 37 years... ;-) Vanilla Emacs doesn't. Yes, I'd forgotten some of my earliest Spacemacs Org customizations as well. It's not that Spacemacs' defaults are vastly better, it's that Spacemacs' UI is vastly more discoverable. The one issue that's hard to fix, single-space sentence detection, is fixed by default. Spacemacs guides the user to the other solutions. E.g., using visual-line-mode introduces one to the superior spacemacs/toggle-truncate-lines because it's on the lowercase version of the same keybind. Which is in the UI toggles section, which also offers related toggles and theme control, via whic-key. The normie-noob bootstrapper will wonder whether he can even cope with Emacs' notoriously challenging environment. Before investing lots of time reading the manual of a program he's never used, it's rational for him to hop in and see whether he can stand it. This means installing vanilla Emacs and starting the tutorial. Maybe, if he's particularly well informed, he manages to open an Org file to take notes as he learns. Then, while he's trying to learn these bizarre keybinds for mouse-less editing, he struggles to find a way to display and edit a paragraph. He finds he can't even document his learning efforts. He resorts to switching between Word and Emacs. Word is easier to use. He gives up and goes back to whatever GTD PIM is next on his list to try. The problem with vanilla Emacs' defaults for prose paragraphs is that there's too many things wrong for the normie-noob to unravel the Gordian knot. Toggling truncation off doesn't look viable because the continuation marks without word wrap with close line spacing are very hard to read. So he uses visual-line-mode instead, which destroys demi-paragraphs, which is hostile to experimental learning. Or maybe he struggles with filled paragraphs instead, which are even clunkier. > Visual mode does this; so does fill mode. Vanilla Emacs with truncation off does not word wrap by default; it wraps in the middle of words. You're right, visual-line-mode does wrap words by default, as does filling. So this is another push away from the truncation toggle, which is the actual correct solution. > This is "look and feel" and easily addressed, as others have noted, by a theme. It's standard for modern programs to ship with a default theme that already makes it look good and usable. Spacemacs comes with themes but none add variable pitch and line spacing to Org, IIRC. Emacs' default custom themes don't either. Themes seem to be mostly about color scheme. I doubt a theme is the right answer, since specifying variable pitch and line spacing would reduce its compatibility. If a theme is the answer, it's something like Poet, which I haven't tested: https://github.com/kunalb/poet > What about turning on whitespace-mode? That makes all the spaces visible, which isn't legible. > So turn off line-move-visual. I wasn't able to do so for visual-line-mode, but it worked for truncation off. Unfortunately, this also disables visual movement for C-n/p next-line, which renders paragraphs un-navigable again. There's no need for logical C-n/p when one already has logical C-a/e and C-up/down. So in the unlikely event the bootstrapper finds this, he will get excited and congratulate himself on his cleverness, only to realize he's made it even worse than before. This is the kind of experience that leads to quitting. > a simple org mode hook with some settings would be all the customization you would need to achieve your desired writing experience and could easily be an example early in the org mode manual. I don't think that's early enough in the bootstrapper's info consumption pipeline. He's going to try to learn the basic keybinds and UI of Emacs before diving into the Org manual. Otherwise how will he even apply customizations? But it's definitely a step in the right direction. On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 8:40 PM Fraga, Eric wrote: > > On Thursday, 6 Feb 2020 at 20:09, Texas Cyberthal wrote: > > A blank line is useful, yes. Use of demi-paragraphs implies use of > > line breaks to signal stronger transitions. E.g., from my recent > > workflow: > > I get this. My own approach is to simply use - at the start of the line > and then each of these demi-paragraphs becomes a list item which are > wrapped nicely (whether with visual or fill mode). > > > What vanilla Emacs Org default visual-line-mode is missing for > > informal prose notes: > > - recognize sentences with a single space after terminal punctuation > > Does for me. Maybe I've customized something... that's the problem with > a .emacs file that has elements that date back 37 years... ;-) > > > - word wrap > > Not sure what you mean here. Visual mode does this; so does fill > mode. What I am failing to understand from you is your frequent > reference to truncation but then wanting wrapping? I'm obviously > missing something. > > > - more line spacing and a variable pitch font > > This is "look and feel" and easily addressed, as others have noted, by a > theme. > > > - denote single line breaks with the absence of continuation marks, as > > truncate lines nil does > > What about turning on whitespace-mode? > > > visual-line-mode's minor luxury of slightly easier navigation to > > arbitrary visual line endpoints doesn't compensate for loss of the > > critical ability to identify logical lines with single line breaks, > > and the loss of keybinds for quick navigation to their endpoints. > > So turn off line-move-visual. > > I guess what I am saying is what I said earlier: a simple org mode hook > with some settings would be all the customization you would need to > achieve your desired writing experience and could easily be an example > early in the org mode manual. > > Does spacemacs initialise things they way you want them? If so, go with > it but I guess there are other things about spacemacs that you do not > like? > > -- > : Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50, Org release_9.3.2-233-gc2bc48