* Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
@ 2020-02-04 4:10 Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-04 7:32 ` Adam Porter
2020-02-10 7:07 ` Bastien
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Texas Cyberthal @ 2020-02-04 4:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Code requires less line spacing. It has more whitespace, fewer capital
letters, and no markup such as underlining. Code is read differently
than prose; it requires less sequential scanning.
Prose has big blocks of text with taller capital letters that must be
scanned sequentially. The tall bits bump into lines above and below.
Org prose adds markup. Underlining and all-caps tags are common. This
requires a bit more line spacing for optimal legibility:
#+begin_src elisp
;; prose with markup needs more line spacing
(defun leo-space-lines ()
(setq line-spacing 0.175))
(add-hook 'org-mode-hook 'leo-space-lines)
#+end_src
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-04 4:10 Texas Cyberthal
@ 2020-02-04 7:32 ` Adam Porter
2020-02-10 7:07 ` Bastien
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Adam Porter @ 2020-02-04 7:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode
Texas Cyberthal <texas.cyberthal@gmail.com> writes:
> Code requires less line spacing. It has more whitespace, fewer capital
> letters, and no markup such as underlining. Code is read differently
> than prose; it requires less sequential scanning.
Code certainly can have markup like underlining. For example,
flymake/flycheck highlighting, highlight-function-calls-mode, Semantic,
etc.
> Prose has big blocks of text with taller capital letters that must be
> scanned sequentially. The tall bits bump into lines above and below.
> Org prose adds markup. Underlining and all-caps tags are common. This
> requires a bit more line spacing for optimal legibility:
>
> #+begin_src elisp
> ;; prose with markup needs more line spacing
> (defun leo-space-lines ()
> (setq line-spacing 0.175))
> (add-hook 'org-mode-hook 'leo-space-lines)
> #+end_src
We should definitely not be messing with line spacing in default
settings. Line spacing is a very personal preference, and it varies
widely by other configuration, such as font.
Please, feel free to make your own prose-specific Org theme or minor
mode, or use or improve one of the several that already exist. Org
defaults need not be changed to meet your preferences.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
@ 2020-02-04 22:07 Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-04 23:17 ` Samuel Wales
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Texas Cyberthal @ 2020-02-04 22:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
If someone is using optional packages that add markup such as
underlining to code, and the markup is so prevalent that he needs
extra line spacing, he is advanced enough to know how to adjust that.
Line spacing preference is idiosyncratic, and spacing varies by face
as well. I propose adding an Org customization settings to adjust
Org's line spacing, so that noobs can more easily achieve legibility.
Adding a function that hooks to Org is too complicated.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-04 22:07 Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6] Texas Cyberthal
@ 2020-02-04 23:17 ` Samuel Wales
2020-02-05 2:27 ` Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-10 7:11 ` Bastien
0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2020-02-04 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Texas Cyberthal; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
i get some of your points in these emails.
i'd sure like to change physical indentation in org to don't.
and i think newcomers and advanced alike might want to have org sub
superscript be off by default. one user on this list recently
exported a signature that contained a version number that got mangled!
===
however, as an example of unintended consequences, line-spacing is a
fundamental thing i'd be leery of changing.
for one thing, it's a big problem to reduce number of lines on screen.
many users use large fonts and are struggling to make use of the
number of lines available even on the largest screens.
i think the user would have trouble noticing that it is possible to fix.
it might look like "part of the font".
even advanced users might not know about line spacing. faces and
display stuff are pretty complex in emacs. powerful, but complex.
add the annoyances a user who requires large fonts has to deal with already.
on top of that the question of what to do with partial lines at end of
window -- is scrolling idempotent? or whatefer the correct math term
for "you do a and the opposite of a and you get what you had before"
is. could cuase issued before being notices.
and that's before differences of opinion on aesthetics. :)
===
but scoping out to your campaign in general, i wonder why some of your
proposals are for org. some things might be good for text mode in
general. or outline mode. or fundamental mode. if we make them only
for org, they might be nih-ish or inconsistent.
emacs users can get curmudgeonly. don't let that stop you. but
please remember to try to falsify your hypotheses.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-04 23:17 ` Samuel Wales
@ 2020-02-05 2:27 ` Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-10 7:11 ` Bastien
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Texas Cyberthal @ 2020-02-05 2:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
If a noob is using Emacs for prose, he's using Org, or at least he
should be. Those using other modes for prose are probably more
advanced. Regardless of how it defines itself, today Emacs is
primarily an IDE for programmers. So prose-friendly defaults are
specific to Org.
Emacs doesn't need to be noob-friendly everywhere, just noob-friendly
in one location, a "starter zone". Org is what attracts non-techies to
Emacs, for its personal info management features.
On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 7:17 AM Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> i get some of your points in these emails.
>
> i'd sure like to change physical indentation in org to don't.
>
> and i think newcomers and advanced alike might want to have org sub
> superscript be off by default. one user on this list recently
> exported a signature that contained a version number that got mangled!
>
> ===
>
> however, as an example of unintended consequences, line-spacing is a
> fundamental thing i'd be leery of changing.
>
> for one thing, it's a big problem to reduce number of lines on screen.
> many users use large fonts and are struggling to make use of the
> number of lines available even on the largest screens.
>
> i think the user would have trouble noticing that it is possible to fix.
> it might look like "part of the font".
>
> even advanced users might not know about line spacing. faces and
> display stuff are pretty complex in emacs. powerful, but complex.
>
> add the annoyances a user who requires large fonts has to deal with already.
>
> on top of that the question of what to do with partial lines at end of
> window -- is scrolling idempotent? or whatefer the correct math term
> for "you do a and the opposite of a and you get what you had before"
> is. could cuase issued before being notices.
>
> and that's before differences of opinion on aesthetics. :)
>
> ===
>
> but scoping out to your campaign in general, i wonder why some of your
> proposals are for org. some things might be good for text mode in
> general. or outline mode. or fundamental mode. if we make them only
> for org, they might be nih-ish or inconsistent.
>
> emacs users can get curmudgeonly. don't let that stop you. but
> please remember to try to falsify your hypotheses.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-04 4:10 Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-04 7:32 ` Adam Porter
@ 2020-02-10 7:07 ` Bastien
1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-02-10 7:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Texas Cyberthal; +Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Texas Cyberthal <texas.cyberthal@gmail.com> writes:
> #+begin_src elisp
> ;; prose with markup needs more line spacing
> (defun leo-space-lines ()
> (setq line-spacing 0.175))
> (add-hook 'org-mode-hook 'leo-space-lines)
> #+end_src
This can definitely be part of the Emacs theme you can write to target
prose writers.
--
Bastien
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-04 23:17 ` Samuel Wales
2020-02-05 2:27 ` Texas Cyberthal
@ 2020-02-10 7:11 ` Bastien
2020-02-10 19:58 ` Samuel Wales
1 sibling, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-02-10 7:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: Texas Cyberthal, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Hi Samuel,
Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
> i'd sure like to change physical indentation in org to don't.
please try
(setq org-adapt-indentation 'headline-data)
from latest master branch, and see how it behaves in a new org buffer.
--
Bastien
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-10 7:11 ` Bastien
@ 2020-02-10 19:58 ` Samuel Wales
2020-02-10 21:52 ` Bastien
0 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Samuel Wales @ 2020-02-10 19:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bastien; +Cc: Texas Cyberthal, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
hi bastien,
i deeply apologize. that statement was not clear. as much as
possible i will be more clear in the future. i appreciate your
looking into it.
nil has always worked for me. i didn't think a new feature was
necessary, but i am curious. what does your change do?
samuel
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
* Re: Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6]
2020-02-10 19:58 ` Samuel Wales
@ 2020-02-10 21:52 ` Bastien
0 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2020-02-10 21:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Samuel Wales; +Cc: Texas Cyberthal, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Samuel Wales <samologist@gmail.com> writes:
> nil has always worked for me. i didn't think a new feature was
> necessary, but i am curious. what does your change do?
(See the other message I just sent for a quick explanation.)
--
Bastien
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread
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2020-02-04 22:07 Prose with markup needs more line spacing [legibility 5/6] Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-04 23:17 ` Samuel Wales
2020-02-05 2:27 ` Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-10 7:11 ` Bastien
2020-02-10 19:58 ` Samuel Wales
2020-02-10 21:52 ` Bastien
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2020-02-04 4:10 Texas Cyberthal
2020-02-04 7:32 ` Adam Porter
2020-02-10 7:07 ` Bastien
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