From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id NyojOFcd9mBPBQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:48:23 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id +KdFM1cd9mAKWAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 00:48:23 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB6B31DD75 for ; Tue, 20 Jul 2021 02:48:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40940 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5dvo-0003ff-Ov for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:48:20 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57770) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5dvN-0003fW-Ds for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:47:53 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x429.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::429]:38740) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1m5dvL-0000H0-05 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:47:53 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x429.google.com with SMTP id c15so526318wrs.5 for ; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 17:47:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1FbAUPEKf9EbXJ9pIRLATUwAjoIkadHxOQlnqENqL68=; b=wKj1XofG7TDlVWLubpD3GBfG3nCV82ZFOsUiiaJFXGG9u13JoWcwNx1CTz3NGpbsEz 6l0+wvfQnex6PkQ9GwHnmtcCmtV/8DCzTUcmamP0Sd9jvhEixz1KHLOv1uu23+3wVqJV //AuOhnJIYJ8vB/j/n4Sxy/IP48zAyvWeR4GYN56JGmoxrs+NW8GmI/Q46JnNM30GuQj 2GyQVSsQYHRinf117rU0fCJ01vSte2/Q0TmqWVCmsawVvY4NbbOlA9LApzcyLKdk2vLh N+nxUduvmku41+tp1kEg0xcXUXR2f2KG1iRG4k9eN8qv67rNQ1N6tDOfy1Phj4wFBxg+ qCMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1FbAUPEKf9EbXJ9pIRLATUwAjoIkadHxOQlnqENqL68=; b=EqZL7PAdGZS6qN+6Dciw95uVauwDFtXL9e5ssG9kU1iSXfs1VHz0fQ5tKLU6mqkJf5 9hXnDxl67NPkdMbCATsa5V8T34LpzRBeibgQLr0DPTY67auvqQE7w9Iurx/PP2Fw3D4a y4jLEZEqDD2XN6+3BJjqW7nPvkK508uL7Kxe929G7yQY/1MtonSbPk6es6SvoF1sgGEh 5UIsRdHwvpnqKrTauNKDVjXYS9smdAsVdvZZseY0CDALSrMPMYUhPj9vosm2xew84XsN k2lO1td5ziRwkRuMWi8ewpK07uVd0NcdYF3Z/VRqDQKkJRLym03ix5OVOO7dcy8wtMAg xAQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5300ocSV8pT29F5DIKLXo9mo50V7R1W8Rhb+mtUSJ/MdCKxgVqH0 +ZOJ/P+pwfYRf6ocaGaDDwnfMmNP4CXPkYCP178= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJysmX+iCf669Gc15apxmZyScIFSlEcRaGrMffnwfapT3t2bvR1TV/3tLKiBMHoGFwZb8mfgx9GM8Oc7rDN8+2o= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5286:: with SMTP id c6mr32530122wrv.75.1626742069073; Mon, 19 Jul 2021 17:47:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8185a990d20b6af915d7355c013c9fc8a62771d4.camel@free.fr> In-Reply-To: <8185a990d20b6af915d7355c013c9fc8a62771d4.camel@free.fr> From: John Kitchin Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2021 20:47:38 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: org-cite: how to include a cite with no key? To: Emmanuel Charpentier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002b1bc705c78367f6" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::429; envelope-from=johnrkitchin@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x429.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1626742103; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=1FbAUPEKf9EbXJ9pIRLATUwAjoIkadHxOQlnqENqL68=; b=mTTBjcdTgZ2N7VcU+uDHD+ghHZbkeYNE5jtAnzzE1geGElcb/8+3pSs3aSJvDq/Ml1eCEz 56WOtvoyqq1LpD26OJLsSZWpPoySTAxVEPDYp3zSExmiV+JGKBQtkGppDkrFsL3K4SdtvN RzYNDe4k0Dh8tOki9Ae9golJR0EUP2ncS21Vt3ucW9kD56BtzTFPvRoVApi+prmDJRw+2+ RVg168rrvBnGkI7lROKY1o23acSoMTtfLebA0SWH298umg9257fmuO8pXcHSj7v939u0y1 yqtA8ynj+48NdSInjHZHgaR6JXKkmy++dUC/aCgb8psDIkvGxkYr2UEkW5kXXA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1626742103; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HeV4vAXDpcMzVy9CSeLKsIrJXnMIyW+fA7KoMkhIlOIbEqxJ9Z38h0hRQSi5VTRxpDjuZc E0b5PXMS/Osq3qRYi7qe4/J2jxUxHYA7qb4B1BGQ/gYwQXAEu0LJNA6FEf0Cy2rgn7U2L/ 2Gx10l3wGm/lY+xiays6fL64abNR7CKaBUBcKW2V/fjOjBIocdupDtPOsG13gF5oQXeXlR vERUrFuZkHc6ezC2IBrBu9MqVaBd/27aN1TlfvN8ki1cFDhJMRjko7gFzXArfKZ4WpkxU+ IU+CA/brJ+ElDFS3Di6X/qGFF4d9Zug6NFX572OoGKxuFUqdqQHgOdic5KHTJQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=wKj1XofG; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.52 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=andrew-cmu-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=wKj1XofG; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed), DKIM not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=andrew.cmu.edu (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DB6B31DD75 X-Spam-Score: -1.52 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: w1orJuF/hpqD --0000000000002b1bc705c78367f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 7:28 PM Emmanuel Charpentier < emm.charpentier@free.fr> wrote: > > In natbib there is \citetext{priv.\ comm.} which is used to add a > > textual citation to the bibliography that doesn't have a key > > associated with it. > > Hmmm... why should you bother to reference a personal communication ? > Such private communications may be mentionned in the text (possibly by > a footnote) but can't be properly referenced (since there is nothing to > refer to). If you feel that this communication must be referred to, you > should give it some (written) support and (properly) reference this > support. > Who is to say why someone would bother. It is a command on page two of http://tug.ctan.org/macros/latex/contrib/natbib/natnotes.pdf that one can use. It is also possible to use \nocite{*} as a cite, which includes all references from a bibliography, and yet contains no key. Even funnier in a way is \nocite{key} which just adds entries to the bibliography, but does not cite them in the body of a document. Footnotes are not always allowed in publications, and for various reasons not worth defending, in proposals one might want to put this in the references because of space limitations. I count at least 10 examples of such personal communications in the references in my library of ~1800 pdfs, so they aren't very common, but certainly they exist in the wild. Whether people should do it or not, they do. > > ISTR that at least CSL and BibLaTeX have types appropriates for a > manuscript or a letter. You may also consider your own notes as > documents and reference them (properly). > > > I don't see a way to get something like that in org-cite, since it > > seems that a key is always required. > > Indeed : the key is, in relational algebra terms, the primary key of > the bibliographic relation... > I think of it more like a lambda function, but for a cite reference, where you define what you want inline. It is pretty common in scientific papers and proposals to see that. It may not make sense to make an @misc bibtex entry for that purpose, since it is a one time citation for that document, and is like a lambda reference. > > This isn't currently recognized as a cite, but something like this > > seems like a reasonable solution to me. > > > [cite/text:@ private communication] > > Such special casing is probably a bugs' nest... err.. hive. And > pointless, as explained /supra/. > HTH, > > -- > Emmanuel Charpentier > > > John > > --0000000000002b1bc705c78367f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Jul 19, 2021 at 7:28 PM Emmanuel Charpentier <emm.charpentier@free.fr> wrote:
> In natbib there is \citetext{priv.= \ comm.} which is used to add a
> textual citation to the bibliography that doesn't have a key
> associated with it.

Hmmm... why should you bother to reference a personal communication ?
Such private communications may be mentionned in the text (possibly by
a footnote) but can't be properly referenced (since there is nothing to=
refer to). If you feel that this communication must be referred to, you
should give it some (written) support and (properly) reference this
support.

Who is to say why someone would bot= her. It is a command on page two of
http://tug.ctan.org/macros/latex/contr= ib/natbib/natnotes.pdf that one can use.=C2=A0

It is also possib= le to use =C2=A0\nocite{*} as a cite, which includes all
references from= a bibliography, and yet contains no key. Even funnier in a way is \nocite{= key} which just adds entries to the bibliography, but does not cite them in= the body of a document.

Footnotes are not always allowed in publica= tions, and for various reasons not worth defending, in proposals one might = want to put this in the references because of space limitations.

I count at least= 10 examples of such personal communications in the references in my librar= y of ~1800 pdfs, so they aren't very common, but certainly they exist i= n the wild. Whether people should do it or not, they do.
=C2=A0

ISTR that at least CSL and BibLaTeX have types appropriates for a
manuscript or a letter. You may also consider your own notes as
documents and reference them (properly).

> I don't see a way to get something like that in org-cite, since it=
> seems that a key is always required.

Indeed : the key is, in relational algebra terms, the primary key of
the bibliographic relation...

I think of it = more like a lambda function, but for a cite=C2=A0reference, where you
de= fine what you want inline. It is pretty common in scientific papers
and proposals to see that.=C2=A0

It may not make = sense to make an=C2=A0@misc bibtex entry for that purpose, since it is a on= e time citation for that document, and is like a lambda reference.


> This isn't currently recognized as a cite, but something like this=
> seems like a reasonable solution to me.

> [cite/text:@ private communication]

Such special casing is probably a bugs' nest... err.. hive. And
pointless, as explained /supra/.

HTH,

--
Emmanuel Charpentier

> John

--0000000000002b1bc705c78367f6--