From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6PjqKe45X2KNMgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:38:38 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id eLYMKe45X2IgXAAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:38:38 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30B6C3A00B for ; Wed, 20 Apr 2022 00:38:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:43588 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ngwUW-0007Mu-QD for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:38:36 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33394) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ngwTp-0007LT-M8 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:37:56 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]:35706) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ngwTn-0002g8-LL for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:37:53 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id k22so24308979wrd.2 for ; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:37:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6/ZJAWlv+bOIFv9KLs8K66twjeTYNUaP8VpcXGz37aA=; b=qlgnaQE7YeW4x1l9O2lVYEWpyA/m1ed2du6KUl370nJBP59uWiAUlQrbeYigIi8qa6 Q/SXYE/Tfv8nxFEsZ5HUbpzxd2+pDZBTIx9QNr1Duhg34ZDXaCu8JcT1dTJmJoqh6k7b O9FF52Yh3BM43JUDTc7qDBghWTaIA/7fOPhAroSbEHhDrjWSjS6xbiRIszYylIQg+bov NCf5hKReac9+nxYmKhkEf7yVYmw+O8MrVvpBLYoqZGn3Lu9a9G22J1lHuJCpIGV4SQuk bcfUxyaaj1YkEpNuZC84OaEXn5MPL1RUVf4NyQ8TEuCu1dvnm9cwWvclmdsnY0ylDH0m XY/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6/ZJAWlv+bOIFv9KLs8K66twjeTYNUaP8VpcXGz37aA=; b=DGEP8AcZHOq25WXRMQHnaqxYf46fM6aPeB1ZaQxW+nF1Mj7eysYP8zXKp2wC15HFht zxyHgzGOJOTuhWo6Y/1EgvGIPUo860CsizzvrFvTqJVCLox2cXbZMBDxZ3BpGE0kPhjq Klwv8M+HaazPb2XN8Rxmc1NvdvRh6SPKeFtpae3Vy3IN+l/3tzTL03ZY5c78LmfMVai4 lX7KWmfyEptP/IIakRNpQTQNbsqgxI7n68upoW9YzITxaIDiCVGzjW7ZKcneXEWZm284 exuZAlBwap+eeWgChOmVeta1IBviRdoblr7qCbjd13W1vry73chIU0Qsj4gopXgs+yNL pNXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531KHCmK4dl02+fxTSe0wx7d/HCjLmAhNjwy5ipjMhy0MuREbmfl KC9nWF94JsIoN2HXv/Mtmy6XB8nbJJJo0uxdK+I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzY6BB10nOWptT0I9gNaPnsz2xUVM8Yjq+TPRnqm8O3GlAgfR36bMcnWYuCTdxNYE64IRLuHh98bkZC+fgc9bM= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f9d0:0:b0:207:bcca:7cc2 with SMTP id w16-20020adff9d0000000b00207bcca7cc2mr13321458wrr.697.1650407869422; Tue, 19 Apr 2022 15:37:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87wngosqvm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87r16wukx0.fsf@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: "Bruce D'Arcus" Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:37:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 To: John Kitchin Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::42e; envelope-from=bdarcus@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x42e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: org-mode-email Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1650407918; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=6/ZJAWlv+bOIFv9KLs8K66twjeTYNUaP8VpcXGz37aA=; b=A6lq8uG3q7ibj+RAu/LRlBJHRvFHtsCodxVcVnSmfbgJaZy924Q64ecDVxmy+rfLZHRFlw YeQwKUD2ct7R3hFVl1+fvgCkgsAeILsbUaQT0dpWQVMPJz++4eUFkmf/pVeBU/n4tktgfr adh8w1zdDS1fGjdFowzkBD58jEFuagCHA0qrwxjfPzLTGebf+uJijABhK1AICLdMKxcg7T B5l6peL6/0pHATUtebFvfEeqSZigTJGvp5alEErID7SeANwKgep+o6s87IU5yp8y+eWorx nxq4lSmwARejyzpnawcTC6NLzalu5+ql8BfQIUOOd/msjxSF/nXNADw5MmH08g== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1650407918; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=PfYVXfzGcOtLLLS+O63S+Iri8XCxWVfDW0j0xOMxGxPWQO7dFAdqGvFZlNBmY4vcIJ6rUB 0Z6rfPT0NXGmcDvSHslvlgiDsoO/cKubBAv/1ezxkfrCY2CK8bohZMfpwZbmRbdWFQPhFO PS3Q/Ou3XoC7DzGB8jdFhaihOXkn4d84hmP2m714ttwqLOkf2qLOubMQGAReKq7Dir1D75 JxwO3aMc9mDzM0dQPAiuYdQuqxXGJSajeHv1SKqtxqwn4lmT06vIOnXIpNyzNl09A/TiqA txUvFY0wP+GUFPT+hG8TD3iusRvZd6mX64vA40Ta2/R2ftSluk8VqtH1m/mH3A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=qlgnaQE7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.04 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=qlgnaQE7; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 30B6C3A00B X-Spam-Score: -9.04 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: dSJHOY76vFWs On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 10:06 AM John Kitchin wro= te: > > Bruce and I looked into this UI approach in https://github.com/jkitchin/o= rg-ref-cite/issues/9. Bruce and I discussed and worked on this for almost t= wo weeks. There are 70 comments in this issue. > > There are opportunities now to annotate completion targets, which you can= see in the link above. The annotations are not selectable though during co= mpletion, and this implementation was not too fast as I recall. FWIW, an alternative I was playing with is something like this, which makes use of the new oc-biblatex styles defcustom: (defcustom style-select-latex-commands nil "Whether to use latex commands for style selection." :group 'style :type '(boolean)) (defun style-latex-alist (&optional swap) "Return org-cite-biblatex-styles as alist. By default, each car is the latex command, and the cdr the org-cite style with variant. With SWAP, they are reversed." (let ((raw-styles org-cite-biblatex-styles)) (mapcar (lambda (s) (let* ((style (elt s 0)) (variant (elt s 1)) (command (elt s 2)) (cstyle (concat style (when variant "/") variant))) (if swap (cons cstyle command) (cons command cstyle)))) raw-styles))) (defun style-select () "Select oc style." (let* ((latex-commands style-select-latex-commands) (styles (if latex-commands (style-latex-alist) (style-latex-alist t))) (choice (completing-read (if latex-commands "Biblatex command: " "Style: ") styles))) (cdr (if style-select-latex-commands (assoc choice (style-latex-alist)) (rassoc choice (style-latex-alist)))))) > You probably should also augment the tooltips like this because you have = to be able to tell what a citation format is in the future too, not just at= insert time, e.g. suppose you are reading work of a collaborator. It was h= ard to write, and ambiguous in ways, e.g. what is the export backend you wa= nt? The annotations should differ for LaTeX (where you want to see the late= x command) vs HTML (where you probably want to see the formatted CSL cite).= .. I was thinking it'd be enough to have a tooltip preview of the citation, and allow the actual preview to be configurable. Bruce > We did not surmount these challenges at the time. Maybe others will succe= ed in this another day. > > John > > ----------------------------------- > Professor John Kitchin (he/him/his) > Doherty Hall A207F > Department of Chemical Engineering > Carnegie Mellon University > Pittsburgh, PA 15213 > 412-268-7803 > @johnkitchin > http://kitchingroup.cheme.cmu.edu > > > > On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:42 AM Bruce D'Arcus wrote: >> >> On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 8:23 AM John Kitchin w= rote: >> >> >> A package could be created, say `org-cite-literal-biblatex' which is = just a copy >> >> of `oc-biblatex.el' with a different default `org-cite-biblatex-style= s' and >> >> `org-cite-biblatex-style-shortcuts' (or just sets those variables in >> >> `org-cite-biblatex'). As far as I can tell this would provide exactly= the >> >> functionality you say org-cite can=E2=80=99t provide but org-ref does= . >> > >> > >> > I wrote this package you suggest in org-ref-cite. In discussions durin= g that development, it was clear the preference was on the more abstracted,= and uniform syntax across backends cite commands in org-cite, and not this= kind of variant. Of course one can do this. It is not that org-cite can't = provide it, it is that it doesn't at this time. >> >> Just for some broader context on this particular issue. >> >> The advantage of the org-cite style/variant design reflected in the >> included export processors (natbib, biblatex, csl) is that the same >> styles will mostly generate the same final output. >> >> But that portability will only work with those styles and variants. >> >> With the new org-cite-biblatex-styles defcustom, however, one can >> augment or completely replace all those. But if you care about that >> portability, you'd want to be aware of this, and think about it. >> >> So per Timothy's point, you actually don't even need a new processor >> for biblatex if you want to include all the extensive list of biblatex >> commands. >> >> Natbib AFAIK is already fully covered. >> >> There's another POV on this though: >> >> If one doesn't like to see the org-cite styles, because of familiarity >> with LaTeX commands etc., I would argue that can be addressed in the >> style part of an insert processor and/or in an activate processor. >> E.g. I would argue this is a UI issue; not fundamentally about the >> styles names. >> >> Bruce