From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id MIFnLdpysmM5bwAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:59:54 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id WEp2LdpysmNHGgAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 06:59:54 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9021D3E71C for ; Mon, 2 Jan 2023 06:59:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pCDqg-00081J-Sc; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 00:59:02 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pCDqf-0007ze-KQ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 00:59:01 -0500 Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::132]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pCDqd-00034G-Rt for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 02 Jan 2023 00:59:01 -0500 Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id o8so16111082ilo.1 for ; Sun, 01 Jan 2023 21:58:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=4DT8a6+cdCtE05gbY3swUgyRw/DpGUPLxC/7Ca0GUKc=; b=BWCZJV9wBwCqap3ZElRKesDQ/qHFrIOFBqqGaRVG28flTNCz7NrQe3oVJsrQUQYduA NYHHURtz1C81dflOdrv4ZWCVpBm6YZ0jqIjlmbw8CIjS16FMnrHcfxPQbbYrTEgmbeIB LtjJKA2c/2TkjIVPmA0KwOafiJvzI4b76DltRJ5mxkajuMSNeD0QThz0LjFlZ6I8qBOC V9CI+WiC9VoZOgx03D+4U/kVPyXnBHGxxjRGubJRDdHKDOBIuaf4noAnfvzOl9yYNLzN ZNNBVyd7RY6Kzvs5uu93Df8aXNmC79gwLVHglMfrve5ZaJOyrhG5JmtHA2QpznyTSmrV 7RaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=4DT8a6+cdCtE05gbY3swUgyRw/DpGUPLxC/7Ca0GUKc=; b=26Xj2gFfTwUl8SMn4FTsNsOUErg0qalrRB371Ge3e8LXW/WIbWtaoEKVWnndSJTXyM 3SFpKmgE39skMFUyo8jg9cttklVL4mAj7kX7zlVohuC0TX2LoItqcxjFvs95HGG+qtXN hEP51G9fLAoW/Yr6MdD0bysR8ACIGFG0CmGI7N88ihYfAVvWnmAq0cKwbvD1pG8SZybU gjVbdRPdx0xRzQsXNjDEavI7WAIX+eNYQEfaZq3lEfzf5RUXjoLkf47NvJchNSj/3dbA f7o6xGGW0IiFmbAamMI4v2OjrCDoKjiWwmrWunH9OpI+TVL1Cfj3BihCm95/CbHsU4Yp 5vUw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2kqc1p8dZz7QzXSGMmkMi73Lbx412xz7OS2mCPZX0kRMyUebj72n zOymCCae7IJ5rJXnIdQaPxs2lN581znxtiXhcw8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXtZMdMcTm79CyfGETVYgxDoKfSqzi8qhtqWToKbJynM39MVMUdbj0cSX7eW3Ve/grD/eiSV+MTamTImmCDTKgA= X-Received: by 2002:a92:b742:0:b0:30c:2b07:ba75 with SMTP id c2-20020a92b742000000b0030c2b07ba75mr1045934ilm.39.1672639138132; Sun, 01 Jan 2023 21:58:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <878rj469sk.fsf@localhost> <877cy673ot.fsf@localhost> In-Reply-To: <877cy673ot.fsf@localhost> From: Eduardo Ochs Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2023 02:58:45 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Export Org with Org concept -- Re: Problems with C-c C-e file.org, To: Ihor Radchenko Cc: andre duarte bueno , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::132; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-x132.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GAPPY_SUBJECT=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1672639193; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=QovyT/s/478IQjIKiE0c0h2sevtAcGF5Dz2eHfUzh64V9dKhJChGe3D5GOlZAWyEaZby7j sb+FFf5o5vdwG3cir6nBdwCsgkjO34h4bLGsONEnKtaw9xkEFtEhVjBsT2tBAd3ur+6k3k NR6kvmXWHJnjH30bJcL9hldNwkjVZqOiE02JlQ+zHxybjoLD8EfS9xDfflfBAzBhoiMmBE IstdGzRvW715M75zlcf87PHfNWJ+eaJXxrp7O+0LGVrBohv9g1BTO8H2YPr8wUiJxyuf0P zD4dapFBrjO4kwYHckxGXRpLjQmnfHgDAlGv/rLEtWq4V4HQusXQ64zZ0yO/WQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=BWCZJV9w; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1672639193; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=4DT8a6+cdCtE05gbY3swUgyRw/DpGUPLxC/7Ca0GUKc=; b=amxih/le+adLG7Us2ZfHoK/lLXD56OgcnPBcxhRl/eVor+QaedBtvzmnA/KQnGRpKIdAGI eqMVJncU/HDoDODkONAfrz8vJMu+Eak5JtgQu2ivlIHqEGnHKsflrpwAjc+qli4iCKJcd9 nDRqKnSsw9WT8hBLjO10DpRKK56MGIxi2pAbt77Ki/tok/tfuXMFC5bIX0snzCzKwjJ2MN LhVL2qGWfuMFFfKg+/hlnatmz2tzP/3yHZnaT1IxUB6ZxLkwYkC2MfeWVk+DdWyAMo2tzd 5QF9FiunNcn37TW5dpbOTkZl57RxJcr2yta1Y95IsfHTn6dePhNSfzmAEH+hpQ== X-Spam-Score: -10.45 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9021D3E71C Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=BWCZJV9w; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -10.45 X-TUID: xeEuaJKqQrIY On Sun, 1 Jan 2023 at 11:02, Ihor Radchenko wrote: > > Eduardo Ochs writes: > > > My conclusion was that Org is much harder to learn than I thought. > > It's easy to learn if: > > > > 1) you're a "user", or > > 2) you know a lot about debugging Emacs, or > > 3) the developers like your questions. > > I hope that (3) is not your experience with Org ML. If it is, I'd rather > say "developers understand questions". At least from my perspective. > Your approach is rather unusual for me, making it difficult to follow > even after detailed explanations. Hi Ihor, (3) _is_ my experience with the Org mailing list. What I meant by "the developers like your questions" was roughly: "recognizing that that person deserves help, and giving him tools that would let him solve his problems in hours instead of in months or years". For example, in this thread https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-orgmode/2021-12/msg00674.html no one considered that if I was asking that then maybe it would be a good idea to make `org-export-dispatch' more hackeable by beginners... For example, someone could have said "can you try this? Copy that function to other file, replace its lines foo and bar by the lines plic and bletch, and use the ideas in these two blog posts to debug and inspect its data structures"... but no, that didn't happen - I've asked lots of technical questions here over the years and never got detailed answers like that, only answers whose technical details _were kept as short as possible_, and whose explanations were much closer to "in English" than to "in Lisp". A few days ago I added subtitles to my video about "Org for Non-Users". The links are here, http://angg.twu.net/2021-org-for-non-users.html and some people will prefer to just read this: http://angg.twu.net/eev-videos/2021-org-for-non-users.vtt http://angg.twu.net/SUBTITLES/2021-org-for-non-users.lua.html It explains with examples how a "non-user" thinks, and it shows what I mean by "explanations in Lisp". Cheers =/, Eduardo