From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id CJztDojBuGKEPQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 22:28:56 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id r0rJDojBuGLoTwAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 22:28:56 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CBD103060E for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 22:28:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:49884 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5YsJ-00067x-0M for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:28:55 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39090) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5Yrm-00065n-8f for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:28:22 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53398) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5Yrl-0002mv-Vf for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:28:21 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=To:Subject:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References: MIME-Version; bh=3mVQvhfY5dY04jNbJjVJq4O4firL7j0EikNo4w/twnc=; b=lNDTRZKDPwUn otqgsv72h+3VYhuN0XE95dJKFC16ikA3HVJakrYaQYazKwViovKbcbiTBkeKgOMb+ha6C4vvcG4gr 6dlSiZSRAZqarzxly/f6BBGMe76sS3yfyYkQwBAbyVFnq20RgEPoXmSeZX7cdPXkckHK0d9/AGbjP T9jxoU2XOSBmDe956FIeO+MzzdVaEV2TH0ccVNpEimPyqZbve9yo+50AFheqA/LgIiXOvnawNqFW/ huFphcgf2DcLzAv8fn7UNR0q/J/pONhj0H5h4DV89DTbZYVSCVR/sW45U4oDz29W88xQEuhdyUgDh 5iMLxSOCwVXXROYAsqV5gA==; Received: from mail-yb1-f172.google.com ([209.85.219.172]:35460) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5Yrk-0008QP-MN for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:28:20 -0400 Received: by mail-yb1-f172.google.com with SMTP id o19so6984767ybg.2 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 13:28:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/rNeu4hewygWgFlSqgUv5LIYFRBu943F5ZTcFKVv+OdWWQNkBf LDzIvF5UyeNiqerwI93OoBJUXantkZzozyTtpv8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1sIHIY2obb+rKr/GB24OKqakPX/2/HDEa12RMXIhmh2/ii19koPu6HTrLidjlQ1xLZR9cvehOEThiAPIJ/5l6s= X-Received: by 2002:a25:7488:0:b0:66c:8e65:441f with SMTP id p130-20020a257488000000b0066c8e65441fmr8532821ybc.548.1656275300152; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 13:28:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4451244f7fd0ea50bcd2a2270b5e75b320b2feaf.camel@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4451244f7fd0ea50bcd2a2270b5e75b320b2feaf.camel@gmail.com> From: Robert Weiner Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 16:27:54 -0400 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: Org and Hyperbole To: Siva Swaminathan Cc: emacs-org list Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ea796305e25fa411" X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: rswgnu@gmail.com Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1656275335; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=3mVQvhfY5dY04jNbJjVJq4O4firL7j0EikNo4w/twnc=; b=N7ScwmxTBmwmR3eMojR9m1zTQk/msqcTog9n50A8qMI1JAjBHmIbRYUgR7MkM30grPtAcg 1sJzqsOJWoTQzS09BBABDo8EdtypiZJc5Hq3ofKW4AV4APCnrff1n5ZuTfNy6XhNxlMd09 GzNtaXmGnQS60w/vSYwbAZXNKyf4QoullRmGWc4yqtQ+Ls+mst2YVxoiyiVmuvaysGLOQM 497eAnhzGTI8LVbpMqiTZA7vsBaiJK0errx4nzjEn6SfadyVOkcOlV3kZIuZ80/2zluBgW qxwsroFWxiGPaaoa6M+pENms+mKe2uISiS+dNYeR7bOfZFlDcUXHCPLRjQKYtg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1656275335; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rjLPbveipzV8i4cL4PxDlPzhMyUqfMHb5cec9Xu+f7yP4zzny21KLp8uB0KP4uITfA1SCN Sb/fWU9CK77gVlCLeR8ZngchjYoPZqFZuCncUTzRioHu825l7cimptWbP/axsLdtD0Wf9V +x/v4M2zeadFgy0v84u/EHfxrYw3yZwpHpi6PI5/p980Vybk1I5BqTvj2FnKMiwLVQ713f Q8Yg6fnK2UJrxO8UmG/Gs3H+tvRDQ7xtsyNOr1RxqIGjTmr5a7mZmRnG3RUlGy6UfpJD8M Txue8HfYzW/mSN3Smi5JG70Js5dlpduaqDMvrf3NFSeRy1lLHPqFovllillMfg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=lNDTRZKD; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.16 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=lNDTRZKD; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: CBD103060E X-Spam-Score: -5.16 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: ENLkK3w0xz3v --000000000000ea796305e25fa411 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Siva: Yes, I think you have a good handle on the concepts behind Hyperbole buttons and additional Action Key contexts. Beyond that, there is also the Koutliner, HyRolo and HyControl in Hyperbole as you grow into it. Look forward to seeing some of the implicit button types you create for your own use. -- rsw On Sun, Jun 26, 2022 at 2:37 AM Siva Swaminathan wrote: > Hello, > > I only recently became aware of Hyperbole (through Bob's demo video > available on Youtube), and came across this thread while googling to > find more information about Hyperbole. I feel that some of the > questions raised here about Hyperbole sound akin to the story of five > blind men feeling the elephant, so I humbly offer my perspective on > what I consider to be the key underlying ideas. Forgive me if I'm > stating the obvious, and I also don't know whether Hyperbole as > currently implemented does exactly all this :-) > > I'd like to think of the key idea of Hyperbole as converting text in > buffers into *objects* (aka "buttons") by attaching *behavior* to them. > The two actions provided by convention could be thought of as akin to > the left-click and right-click which one is familiar with in > contemporary GUIs, in this case respectively bound to methods for "do > (by default)" and "show metadata". Supporting more > behaviors/methods/messages for user-invocation is an obvious next idea > (if not already so). > > The above system would be of quite limited composability if it required > objects to be defined explicitly -- because most buffers one operates > on are generated without awareness of Hyperbole (imagine the pain of > everything needing to conform to something like a Hyperbole > framework/protocol!). The cleverness behind implicit buttons is that > one can opportunistically use common conventions as "schemas" to "parse > / deserialize" the contents which make up an object from any buffer (in > this case via regexps) and attach corresponding (expected) behaviors to > them! Because of the highly structured nature of such data, even if > embedded in a stream of plain text, it can typically be parsed > correctly without needing explicit type annotations. The behaviors > could presumably depend not just the object, but also the active modes, > environment variables, etc. > > Here are a few made-up example use cases (hand-waving over details): > > 1. I might embed phrases such as "bug:123" in my code / emails / org > task management and have behaviors that respectively fetch the bug > report / open some URL in a browser / or update the TODO status based > on the bug status, as desired. This would help me interface > conveniently with a bespoke bug-tracking tool. > > 2. On encountering Goodreads links in my reading list org file, I could > have a behavior to parse the contents of the webpage and extract > desired metadata to add to the item properties (or an entry to some org > table). > > 3. Linking by immutable block identifiers (and fast lookup) of course > enables a lot of PKM workflows that have recently become popular (with > the addition of bidirectional links). > > Other aspects such as menus generated from button files seem like > convenient affordances bolted on to make up the UI of the system. I > still need to wrap my mind around these, but I wonder whether there > might be opportunities to compose with other ecosystem tools which have > pioneered some nice UI ideas eg. transient menus, hydras, interactive > selection lists, etc. But that's a discussion for the Hyperbole mailing > list. > > > From a first impression, I'm really impressed, and also surprised that > Hyperbole is not more popular. Much gratitude to the contributors for a > nifty tool, and a fascinating design perspective. > > Best regards, > Siva > http://sivark.me > > --000000000000ea796305e25fa411 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Siva:

Yes, I think you have a good handle on the con= cepts behind Hyperbole buttons and additional Action Key contexts.=C2=A0 Be= yond that, there is also the Koutliner, HyRolo and HyControl in Hyperbole a= s you grow into it.=C2=A0 Look forward to seeing some of the implicit butto= n types you create for your own use.

-- rsw

On Sun, Jun 26, 202= 2 at 2:37 AM Siva Swaminathan <s= iva.rk.sw@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,

I only recently became aware of Hyperbole (through Bob's demo video
available on Youtube), and came across this thread while googling to
find more information about Hyperbole. I feel that some of the
questions raised here about Hyperbole sound akin to the story of five
blind men feeling the elephant, so I humbly offer my perspective on
what I consider to be the key underlying ideas. Forgive me if I'm
stating the obvious, and I also don't know whether Hyperbole as
currently implemented does exactly all this :-)

I'd like to think of the key idea of Hyperbole as converting text in buffers into *objects* (aka "buttons") by attaching *behavior* to= them.
The two actions provided by convention could be thought of as akin to
the left-click and right-click which one is familiar with in
contemporary GUIs, in this case respectively bound to methods for "do<= br> (by default)" and "show metadata". Supporting more
behaviors/methods/messages for user-invocation is an obvious next idea
(if not already so).

The above system would be of quite limited composability if it required
objects to be defined explicitly -- because most buffers one operates
on are generated without awareness of Hyperbole (imagine the pain of
everything needing to conform to something like a Hyperbole
framework/protocol!). The cleverness behind implicit buttons is that
one can opportunistically use common conventions as "schemas" to = "parse
/ deserialize" the contents which make up an object from any buffer (i= n
this case via regexps) and attach corresponding (expected) behaviors to
them! Because of the highly structured nature of such data, even if
embedded in a stream of plain text, it can typically be parsed
correctly without needing explicit type annotations. The behaviors
could presumably depend not just the object, but also the active modes,
environment variables, etc.

Here are a few made-up example use cases (hand-waving over details):

1. I might embed phrases such as "bug:123" in my code / emails / = org
task management and have behaviors that respectively fetch the bug
report / open some URL in a browser / or update the TODO status based
on the bug status, as desired. This would help me interface
conveniently with a bespoke bug-tracking tool.

2. On encountering Goodreads links in my reading list org file, I could
have a behavior to parse the contents of the webpage and extract
desired metadata to add to the item properties (or an entry to some org
table).

3. Linking by immutable block identifiers (and fast lookup) of course
enables a lot of PKM workflows that have recently become popular (with
the addition of bidirectional links).

Other aspects such as menus generated from button files seem like
convenient affordances bolted on to make up the UI of the system. I
still need to wrap my mind around these, but I wonder whether there
might be opportunities to compose with other ecosystem tools which have
pioneered some nice UI ideas eg. transient menus, hydras, interactive
selection lists, etc. But that's a discussion for the Hyperbole mailing=
list.


>From a first impression, I'm really impressed, and also surprised that<= br> Hyperbole is not more popular. Much gratitude to the contributors for a
nifty tool, and a fascinating design perspective.

Best regards,
Siva
http://si= vark.me

--000000000000ea796305e25fa411--