From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id mI4bDtgls1/KdQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:22:32 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id IFLtCdgls1/gOwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:22:32 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F93F9404C7 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:22:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48908 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kephU-00079B-2E for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:22:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45680) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keph1-00077T-GN for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:21:59 -0500 Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]:56254) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kepgy-0001xU-SW for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:21:59 -0500 Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id c9so1489129wml.5 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:21:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jQqSNciuo1wM4P2EqfC0mMv564q9p+BPcAPPYOVn7LM=; b=WG8IcE7LibwbHmo0UqfYZ50EnIiF6a1k0IsAjquHCbsIxOQ8KqWEKwmsR1t5oqoGxr uqJGTZaGKim+7GuG3NZr25n05eHagzoG3WwAo7qmItuj52hwlWBc3RxC24TCg5XRSgf7 R3LwckL7j3wJ6Da1aHtAOqo8J3UOtajITFjPkhGmKZwBDq8CLVFdd9ZKkGj8ntkXILSn /xJacY2kgMety+C3h8ecRSLhZWzWWP7Hh6O50E7GieGhnLaAFU4BWrCCbye3Kkhi6gyY lj/ZgEjaS5VVx3t/zQXY7X1IxNy+KVunYIOkq7VVlW/ywTUvHR60s3HTclkrjrRHcDLC SerA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jQqSNciuo1wM4P2EqfC0mMv564q9p+BPcAPPYOVn7LM=; b=CZP7inqf/nkDVvkwAhnVtxwTG6NDaD8c1C+QrCIFZkYwbrQpeQ6RaBhrwYNq7PDL/A QE5c6bsBVytxLj2QGh3YwnturpT99sc5xT0FxSXOpm9wOng/buCO420b7oLGCJhraVoe 0LHIlayfz/85Ltyse8ApFI3z5CWe+mNKgO1uK5lnZlhRs+ZCqg7NfUtcIWTIbuQ5wzYx 0gd7nXJBWkxcw+kd0iKcPbPGH8NlS15+o6okV7lh67OyyJB5GXgU+1OLU5v4QwvKWOHx M8G0CBtKjLBnDMpo8AZVQwltQH4ivHLn3QSjDMpShwuYDpZ4KxqvefOXcr4mmO5kt04O fszQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5330E8RJJ6WhBEkcyCuqZsjw+rLqHhj4Awo9N8Z1qkSsyFxCuAlo T5XtiWbMqZlv9DfyEZmrLWjpWjJQnSKLOaLac38= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwF9U1yz92YjP1L81Lf8FXNXHvybHKfGdiM64eq47xUjsWXcEVAuqtWDa0zA5yJeeaU15pg/GbiXOzHlTW5RRk= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:1b85:: with SMTP id b127mr1597450wmb.163.1605576114667; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 17:21:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <877dqlby74.fsf@gmail.com> <871rgtbwml.fsf@gmail.com> <87blfxv966.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6vgq402.fsf@victor.tftorrey.com> In-Reply-To: <87a6vgq402.fsf@victor.tftorrey.com> From: Tom Gillespie Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2020 20:21:42 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? To: "T.F. Torrey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32b; envelope-from=tgbugs@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=WG8IcE7L; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -0.71 X-TUID: sxajzbleAVB5 Terry, Thank you very much for the clear articulation of the problem, it enable me to see what the issue is and find more and deeper issues with the change. Speaking as someone who was not affected by this change due to the peculiarities of my config, let me say as a fairly impartial participant, this change is completely broken and it is clear upstream Emacs did zero due diligence on the impact it would have for org-mode. The current implementation of elastic-indent-mode is obviously broken for use in org. What do I mean? Currently, electric-intent-mode t is actively destructive in certain cases. Consider a headline created by *-space or M-ret. If you then hit return (because you don't know what to call that headline but have the idea you want to type) electric-intent-mode will delete the trailing space making it no longer a headline!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT?! This is horrible broken behavior in org mode! At the very least this must be fixed if electric-indent-mode is to be on by default in org-mode. It is clear that electric-indent-mode as implemented, is unsuitable for use in org-mode since it actively ignores significant trailing whitespace. The sane thing to do is to revert to electric-indent-mode nil at least until the obvious brokeness is fixed, and even then, why make people undo a stupid computer decision by typing backspace when they can just as easily do what they mean by typing tab!??! We don't even have to poll the community to figure out who is going to be forced to type more. I don't mean to sound ungrateful to the folks who have worked to match with upstream, but it is clear that upstream has done zero testing on the impact of that change on org-mode (or any other mode for that matter). Until the upstream behavior can be fixed or org can patch the brokenness this needs to be reverted. Even then, why is the "smart" option that changes the meaning of the bloody return key enabled by default? I will point back to https://orgmode.org/list/87ees6fp8r.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr/ and state that had I spotted this thread at the time, I would have spoken up to point out that it would likely not be a welcome change, as this thread shows. The good news is that all is not lost and now when users want electric-indent-mode in org it will be consistent with upstream. Best, Tom