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From: Tom Gillespie <tgbugs@gmail.com>
To: emacs-orgmode <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Cc: "Juan Manuel Macías" <maciaschain@posteo.net>,
	"Max Nikulin" <manikulin@gmail.com>,
	"Tim Cross" <theophilusx@gmail.com>,
	"Denis Maier" <denismaier@mailbox.org>
Subject: Re: Org-syntax: Intra-word markup
Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 09:53:11 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CA+G3_PNca3HY6TUDPMfHGt35Amj9a-y8dBNQo+ZvBOV6y3nHYw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <9525e029-a590-3f48-df64-ffb9176075d9@mailbox.org>

Hi all,
    After a bunch of rambling (see below if interested), I think I have
a solution that should work for everyone. The key realization is that
what we really want is the ability to have a "parse me separately"
type of syntax. This meets the intra-word syntax needs and might
meet some other needs as well.

The solution is to make @@org:...@@ "parse me separately"
block! It nearly works that way already too! To minimize typing
we could have @@:...@@ the empty type default to org.

This seems like a winner to me. The syntax for it already exists
and won't conflict. It requires relatively minimal additional typing
the implication is clear, and there are other places where such
behavior could be useful.

This syntax seems like a winner to me
@@org:/hello/@@world
@@:/hello/@@world

You can also do things like
#+begin_src org
I want a number in this number@@org:src_elisp{(+ 1 2)}@@word!
#+end_src

Which would render to
#+begin_src org
I want a number in this number3word!
#+end_src

Thoughts?

Best!
Tom

--------------- rambling below -------------


> This idea reminds me a bit of Scribble/Racket where every document is
> just inverted code, which makes it possible to insert arbitrary Racket
> code in your prose...

I will say, despite some of my comments elsewhere, that I think
exploring certain features of Scribble syntax for use in Org mode
would simplify certain parts of the syntax immensely.

For example
various inline blocks are an absolute pain to parse because they
allow nested delimiters /if they are matched/. The implementation
of the /if they are matched/ clause is currently a nasty hack which
generates a regular expression that can only actually handle nesting
to depth 3. Actually implementing the recursive grammar add a lot
of complexity to the syntax and is hard to get right.

It would be vastly simpler to use Scribble's |<{hello }} world}>|
style syntax and always terminate at the first matching delimiter.
I'm sure that this would break some Org files, but it would make
dealing with latex fragments and inline source blocks and inline
footnotes SO much simpler. Matching an arbitrary number of
angle brackets does add some complexity, but it is tiny compared
to the complexity of enforcing matched parens and their failure cases
especially because many of the places where nesting is required
probably only see use of the nesting feature in a tiny fraction of
all cases.

One other reason why this is attractive is that all the instances
where nested delimiters can appear on a line are preceded by
some non-whitespace character. This means that using the
pipe syntax does not conflict with table syntax!

Now the question comes. If we could implement this for
delimiters, could we also implement something similar
for markup? The issue with the proposed markup outside
delimiter inside approach is that it will change existing
behavior for files that want the delimiters to be included
in the markup, i.e. /{oops}/ becoming /oops/ is bad. A
second issue is that putting the delimiter inside the markup
cannot work for verbatim and code ={oops}= is ={oops}= no
matter what. Therefore the solution is not uniform across all
types of markup. We need another solution that works for
all types of markup.

What if we put the "start arbitrary markup" char outside
the markup? Say something like |/ital/|icks? Or what if
we went whole hog and used |{/ital/}|ics and made the
|{...}| syntax trigger a generalized feature where the
contents of the |{...}| block are parsed by themselves
and can abutt any other text? This would be generally
useful in a variety of situations beyond just intra-word
markup.

What are the issues with this approach? The first issue
is that there is a conflict with table syntax if we were to
use the pipe character because markup can appear at
the start of a line. The second issue is that it might be
confusing for users if |{}| also worked like {} when in the
context of latex elements or inline src blocks, or maybe
that is ok because |{}| never renders as text. Hrm. Ok.
Second issue resolved, but what to do about the first?

If we want generalized "parse this by itself" syntax so
that we can write hello|{/world/}|ok, then we need a
solution that can appear at the start of a line. So we
can't use pipe because that is always a table line even
if a zero width space is put before it ;). What other
options do we have? How about #+|{/hello/}|world for
the start of a line? As long as there is no trailing colon
it isn't a keyword, so it could work ... except that if
someone reflows the text and it is no longer a the
start of a line then the syntax breaks. That is to say
using #+| at the start of a line is not uniform, so we
can't take that approach.

What other chars to we have at our disposal? Hrm.
How about @@? Could we use that? What happens
if we use @@org:/hello/@@world? Or maybe if we
want to minimize the number of chars we could do
@@:/hello/@@world and have the empty prefix in
@@ blocks mean org?


  reply	other threads:[~2021-12-04 17:54 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 72+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-12-02 10:50 Denis Maier
2021-12-02 11:18 ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 11:30   ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-02 11:36     ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 12:01       ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 11:42     ` Marco Wahl
2021-12-02 11:50       ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 12:10         ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 12:40           ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 12:54             ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 13:14               ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-02 13:28                 ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 12:48           ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-02 12:02       ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 12:00     ` Ihor Radchenko
     [not found]       ` <87r1avtdjy.fsf@ucl.ac.uk>
2021-12-02 12:27         ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 13:06           ` Eric S Fraga
2021-12-02 12:28       ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 12:55         ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 11:58 ` Timothy
2021-12-02 12:26   ` Denis Maier
2021-12-02 13:07     ` Ihor Radchenko
2021-12-02 15:51       ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-02 18:11         ` Tom Gillespie
2021-12-02 19:09           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-04 13:07             ` Org-syntax: emphasis and not English punctuation Max Nikulin
2021-12-04 16:42               ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-02 20:47           ` Org-syntax: Intra-word markup Denis Maier
2021-12-02 22:44             ` Samuel Wales
2021-12-03 14:53           ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-03 23:51           ` Tim Cross
2021-12-04 15:01             ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-05 23:34               ` Russell Adams
2021-12-05 23:37             ` Russell Adams
2021-12-06  1:39               ` Samuel Wales
2021-12-02 19:03       ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-12-02 19:34         ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-02 23:05           ` Nicolas Goaziou
2021-12-02 23:24             ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-03 14:24         ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-03 15:01           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-04 15:57           ` Denis Maier
2021-12-04 17:53             ` Tom Gillespie [this message]
2021-12-04 18:37               ` John Kitchin
2021-12-04 21:16                 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 10:57                 ` Raw Org AST snippets for "impossible" markup Max Nikulin
2021-12-06 15:45                   ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-06 16:56                     ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-08 13:09                     ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-08 23:19                       ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-08 23:35                         ` John Kitchin
2021-12-09  7:01                           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-09 14:56                             ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-09 16:11                               ` Juan Manuel Macías
2021-12-09 22:27                                 ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-01-03 14:34                                   ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-04 19:04               ` Org-syntax: Intra-word markup Timothy
2021-12-04 21:48                 ` Tom Gillespie
2021-12-06 10:59                   ` Max Nikulin
2022-01-28 14:52                   ` Max Nikulin
2022-01-29  3:13                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-01-29 13:05                       ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-02-02 15:28                         ` Max Nikulin
2022-02-02 20:01                           ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-02-03 12:10                             ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-06 11:01               ` Denis Maier
2022-01-28 12:12 ` [PATCH] Intra-word markup: \relax Max Nikulin
2022-01-28 13:13   ` Juan Manuel Macías
2022-02-02 15:42     ` Max Nikulin
2021-12-02 13:36 Org-syntax: Intra-word markup autofrettage
2021-12-02 15:24 ` Robert Pluim
2021-12-02 17:11   ` autofrettage

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