Hi Dan, Yes, sorry, "gory" was off the mark. I think your approach with minted, etc. to gain out of the box functionality like this is very useful. I'm following the conversation with interest because I am planning a publication that includes some code snippets. My reservation comes from a decade of creating and maintaining LaTeX code. When I violate the separation of semantics and implementation in a .tex file, I come to regret it sooner or later. Old .tex files with non-semantic markup typically need editing before they can be used again with a different style file. Thinking through this a bit more, I can see that this is not really an issue if the .org source is always the master document--the .tex file can later be regenerated to meet the requirements of a new style. I guess the implementation choice is dependent on the expected use life of the LaTeX code generated by org-mode. If the LaTeX code is just an intermediate step in a single process, then it is probably best to have org-mode specify all the LaTeX implementation details. If the LaTeX code is the goal, and will have its own use life independent of the org-mode file that created it, then the implementation details in the .tex file will eventually get in the way. All the best, Tom On Aug 10, 2010, at 7:37 AM, Dan Davison wrote: > "Thomas S. Dye" writes: > >> Hi Dan, >> >> One of the design goals of LaTeX is to use semantic markup in the >> source and to keep details of representation separate, typically in a >> style or class file that is used to render the semantic markup. From >> this perspective, the cleanest implementation would be to create a >> LaTeX style or class file for use with org-mode, where the gory >> details of listings vs. minted, etc. > > Yes, although may I repeat that in the case of minted there are no > gory > details. The patch I submitted already works to give org users > out-of-the-box pretty fontified code with nothing more required than > installation of pygments and putting minted.sty in a suitable > place. Pending the work on listings that you and Seb and I are > proposing, the minted patch is therefore a useful advance for org > mode. It can always be removed later if it becomes clear that it is > completely redundant in view of newly improved org/listings support. > > But yes, absolutely, what you say is definitely helpful for those > planning work on improving listings support. > > Dan > >> could be worked out. This would >> leave org-mode to do what it does very well, which is to identify and >> mark the relevant semantic units, and would at the same time simplify >> org-mode configuration. >> >> For the user, this would require the org-mode.sty or org-mode.cls >> file >> be placed somewhere LaTeX could find it and creating an export target >> for it in .emacs. >> >> This might not qualify as "out of the box" but the looser coupling >> between org-mode and LaTeX is likely to be a plus in the long run. >> >> All the best, >> Tom >> >> On Aug 9, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Dan Davison wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Sébastien Vauban >> +FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org> >>> writes: >>> >>>> Hi Dan, >>>> >>>> Dan Davison wrote: >>>>> Sébastien Vauban >>>>> >>>>> writes: >>>>>> Sebastian Rose wrote: >>>>>>> Dan Davison >>>>>>> writes: >>>>>>>> Can you point me to an example that shows how to make source >>>>>>>> code in >>>>>>>> latex look (almost) as nice as html? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> That is supposed to work with the `listings' package. I havent >>>>>>> tried that >>>>>>> yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> If I understand you right, here's such an example you're after: >>>>>> >>>>>> * Much better code >>> >>> [...] >>> >>>>>> I've put the PDF (for easy access) onto my Web site: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.mygooglest.com/sva/ECM-Listings.pdf >>>>> >>>>> Wow, that's really nice. Thanks for sharing that. >>>> >>>> I really thought that you used such a thing for a long time, having >>>> done so >>>> much for Org-Babel. Maybe you were more interested by the execution >>>> stuff, >>>> rather than its printing? For me, the opposite: I was much >>>> interested by the >>>> printing, now by accessing all the power of Babel. >>> >>> You're probably right that I should have looked into it. But >>> seeing as >>> the HTML export of code is so nice and requred no configuration, I >>> never >>> got round to it. Although I did write my Ph.D. in latex, and I am >>> enjoying using the listings package for formatting pseudocode in a >>> paper >>> which I'm supposed to be writing, I do need to become better friends >>> with latex, it's true. >>> >>>>> I think we should aim to get to a point where org-mode can produce >>>>> such >>>>> nicely formatted source code out-of-the-box. >>>> >>>> I share your point. I'm willing to participate, or even begin, such >>>> a page on >>>> Worg, with the above info. >>>> >>>>> Maybe we could even make latex inherit the colours and fonts that >>>>> emacs is >>>>> currently using for source code mark up? >>>> >>>> For sure, that'd be nice. You mean the way htmlize works, and keeps >>>> my colors, >>>> right? >>>> >>>> Dunno what it implies for Org-LaTeX... Generating your own class >>>> customization, >>>> and having it loaded by default (in the list of LaTeX packages)? >>> >>> Usage of listings is controlled by the variable >>> `org-export-latex-listings', so the simplest start would be: if that >>> is >>> non-nil then code like yours could be inserted into the latex >>> output. >>> >>>> >>>>> I was going to suggest doing this with listings but then came >>>>> across minted, >>>>> and I wonder whether that's even more suitable? (See the other >>>>> post I just >>>>> made.) >>>> >>>> Never heard about it before, while I'm trying to follow info about >>>> TeX as >>>> well. >>>> >>>> I'm very impressed by the quality and reaction time of >>>> french.computers.text.tex. So, I decided to ask them what they >>>> thought about >>>> Listings vs Minted. >>> >>> ,---- >>> | "sur un post de Dan Davison parlant d'un nouveau paquet qui >>> | serait mieux que Listings." >>> `---- >>> >>> Hey, I never said that! :) >>> >>> I said it might be better *for export of code from org-mode*. But >>> seriously, no problem, in addition to my character assassination, >>> from >>> what I could make out they made lots of good points. Although I will >>> watch out now if I come across any francophones who look like they >>> might >>> be tex enthusiasts (wouldn't one always...) >>> >>> What I meant is that seeing as org-users who set >>> `org-export-latex-listings' get black and white code with ugly fonts >>> by >>> default, there are two improvement options for us: >>> >>> 1. we work on incorporating nice listings configuration into org >>> mode so >>> that Org users get nice colours and fonts by default >>> 2. we add an option to allow Org users to use the minted package, >>> which >>> gives them nice colours and fonts automatically. >>> >>> (2) was easy and so I did it straight away. And (1) is still >>> something >>> we want to do, not least because listings is in standard latex >>> distributions and doesn't have an extra python requirement. Assuming >>> that minted/pygments are stable software that will be around for a >>> while, I would vote for both options ultimately being available in >>> org-mode. >>> >>>> >>>> See on >>>> [[http://groups.google.com/groups/search?as_umsgid%3D87lj8gp4rr.fsf%40mundaneum.com >>>> ][Email from Sébastien Vauban: Listings vs Minted]] >>>> >>>> What's interesting is that 2 brilliant people of that list >>>> responded on that. >>>> I could try to translate the whole, but there already is a lot. >>>> Just >>>> highlighting that they don't trust that much all the facts that >>>> have been used >>>> against Listings (and prove what they say): about Utf-8, or the >>>> number of >>>> languages, etc. >>>> >>>> They agree with one inconvenient of Listings: the fact that, by >>>> default, it >>>> uses bad settings (like no color, and proportional font). >>>> >>>> On the other hand, they don't like implying the use of an external >>>> language to >>>> LaTeX. Impacts on shell-escape. >>>> >>>> The discussion is going on. I'll keep you posted. >>>> >>>> For sure, the objective of getting better out-of-the-box is a goal >>>> we can >>>> reach. >>> >>> Excellent, I think that will be a good addition to org-mode. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Seb >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >>> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emacs-orgmode mailing list >> Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. >> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode Thomas S. Dye, Ph.D. T. S. Dye & Colleagues, Archaeologists, Inc. Phone: (808) 529-0866 Fax: (808) 529-0884 http://www.tsdye.com