Re: Re: Custom entry IDs in HTML export

From: Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com>
To: Sebastian Rose <sebastian_rose@gmx.de>
Cc: org-mode mailing list <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>,
	Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca>
Subject: Re: Re: Custom entry IDs in HTML export
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 19:14:52 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <A3DF242A-2681-42E3-B9E4-F8FC290C4EB1@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87vdp4u4e8.fsf@kassiopeya.MSHEIMNETZ>

Hi Sebastian,

On Apr 16, 2009, at 3:14 PM, Sebastian Rose wrote:

> Hm - counter arguments?
>
> The only counter argument is, that hand made IDs for links are prone  
> to
> error. But that risk should be up to the user.

Yes.  and during the export, I can actually check and throw a warning  
or an error if the same custom ID shows up twice.

>
> I actually changed my mind a little in this concern.
>
> If the user clicks a section link in the toc to jump to a section, he
> can bookmark the page with exactly that jump target. If the jump  
> target
> (the ID) is human readable, the bookmark is more verbose.

Yes, this is really the best application.  Also, when hovering over  
internal links, it is helpful if the link displays the human-readable  
form.

> Just one wish:
>
> The containers should reflect that change (HRID = human readable id):
>
> <div   id="outline-container-HRID">
> <h4  id="HRID">                   headline    </h4>
> <div id="outline-text-HRID">
>    sections content...
> </div>
> </div>

Sure, we can do this.  I would then add sec-xxx as one
of the alternative anchors as well.

However:  If I make the structure as you indicate above,
do I understand correctly that the structure of a section without a  
human-readable id should be changed to this:

<div   id="outline-container-sec-1.1">
<h4  id="sec-1.1">                   headline    </h4>
<div id="outline-text-sec-1.1">
    sections content...
</div>
</div>

Note the "sec-" which is added to the stuff that currently
defines the structure.

> That way the script would keep working with older pages.
> Automatic IDs and human readable ones could be mixed.
>
>
> The '<a id="">' anchors are scanned anyway, as are all jump targets in
> the page.

Yes, you implemented that some time ago, I remember.

>
> Maybe this is even the point to re-work the parser of org-info.js to
> become independent of the TOC at all. The script could search for
> headings instead. That's more work, but the script would then work for
> all HTML pages with a structure similar to the org-export's one:

So this would mean, we could read web pages with your java
support even if those webpages were not created with Org?
Pretty cool.

> <div id=""><hx id=""></hx><div>content</div></div>
>
> but I could postpone this, if you fullfill my wish above.

Best wishes

- Carsten

>
>
> Best wishes
>
> Sebastian
>
>
>
>
> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Apr 16, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Sebastian Rose wrote:
>>
>>> Carsten Dominik <carsten.dominik@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> Hi Sebastian,
>>>>
>>>> I kind of like the idea to have a property that can be
>>>> used to set an ID, as an alternative to the <<target>>
>>>> notation.  Actually, using a property seems a lot cleaner,
>>>> thanks for coming up with this idea, Daniel.
>>>>
>>>> I can also follow the reasoning that it is useful to have
>>>> the table of contents link to the human-readable id, because
>>>> it provides a general, simple workflow to retrieve a link that
>>>> will persist through changes of the document.  This workflow
>>>> was described also by Bernt earlier in this thread.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, I also agree that the main id in the <h3> tag
>>>> should be the automatically generated one because this is
>>>> best for automatic processing and because of all the arguments
>>>> you have presented.
>>>>
>>>> Would it cause problems for org-info.js if the toc points to
>>>> a user specified anchor in the headline, instead of the main
>>>> ID that is inside the <h3> tag?  THis would really be the only
>>>> required change.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll have to test this before I can give a final answer to this
>>> question.
>>>
>>> But regardless of the results, I will adjust the script to reflect  
>>> that
>>> change. The script should not rule the HTML export and it will be an
>>> easy thing to do.
>>
>> But I do want to hear any counter arguments you might have....
>>
>> - Carsten
>>
>>>
>>> Sebastian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> - Carsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:49 PM, Daniel Clemente wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> El dv, mar 27 2009, Sebastian Rose va escriure:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What we have now, just as Carstens said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Creates this headline in HTML:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <h2 id="sec-2"><a name="human-readable" id="human-readable"></ 
>>>>>> a>2 Section B
>>>>>> </h2>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is enough for all the use cases I can think of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, this is enough except for two things:
>>>>> 1. The TOC still links to #sec-2 and the user can't change that
>>>>> 2. Your syntax doesn't fold very well in the outliner. I mean:  
>>>>> if you use
>>>>>
>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>
>>>>> then the comment appears at the end of the previous section, and  
>>>>> you can
>>>>> miss
>>>>> it when you are viewing the heading „Section B“. I  would swap  
>>>>> both lines
>>>>> (solution 1):
>>>>>
>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>> # <<human-readable>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But since there are already LOGBOOK drawers under the heading,  
>>>>> it would be a
>>>>> lot clearer to use a property, like EXPORT_ID (solution 2):
>>>>>
>>>>>> * Section B
>>>>>> :PROPERTIES:
>>>>>> :EXPORT_ID: human-readable
>>>>>> :END:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In this way, the TOC can reliably find the EXPORT_ID, and then  
>>>>> generate:
>>>>>> <h2 id="sec-2"><a name="human-readable" id="human-readable"></ 
>>>>>> a>2 Section B
>>>>>> </h2>
>>>>>
>>>>> (You could also leave *just* the human-readable id, but having  
>>>>> two is not
>>>>> bad.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer solution 1, but I don't because I'm not sure that  
>>>>> the TOC can
>>>>> find the ID if it is written as a comment anywhere under  the  
>>>>> heading (and
>>>>> together with other things).
>>>>>
>>>>> Solution 2 involves thus: a new property to specify the human-
>>>>> readable entry ID, which will be used to link to the entry. The  
>>>>> automatic ID
>>>>> (#sec-2) will still work for all entrys.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * Distinguishing automatic and human readable IDs
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One thing I like is, that we now _can_ distinguish the
>>>>>> `human-readable-target' (human readable) from the `sec-2' (not  
>>>>>> human
>>>>>> readable and not context related) using a regular expression.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In org-info.js, I can now prefere the human readable ID in <a>  
>>>>>> from an
>>>>>> automatic created one, and thus use that to create the links  
>>>>>> for `l'
>>>>>> and `L'. The same holds true for other programming languages and
>>>>>> parsers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If we open the <h3>'s ID for user defined values (bad), we can  
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> distinguish those ID's using a regular expression and there is  
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to detect the human readable one. There will be no way to  
>>>>>> _know_ that
>>>>>> the <a>'s ID is the prefered one used for human readable links.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Solution 2 doesn't break the parsing techniques you use; in fact  
>>>>> it can also
>>>>> make clearer which ID is the human readable one and which  one  
>>>>> not.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not extremely important; just useful:
>>>>> - for pages with many incoming links from external sites
>>>>> - to ensure link integrity (now you can't assure that links will  
>>>>> still work
>>>>> in
>>>>> 1 year ... or in some weeks)
>>>>> - to avoid that HTML visitors get directed to a wrong section  
>>>>> and can't find
>>>>> what they searched
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings,
>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode mailing list
>>>>> Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list.
>>>>> Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>>>>> http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449  
>>> Hannover
>>> Tel.:  +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
>>> Fax:   +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
>>> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
>>> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
>>> Http:  www.emma-stil.de
>>
>
> -- 
> Sebastian Rose, EMMA STIL - mediendesign, Niemeyerstr.6, 30449  
> Hannover
> Tel.:  +49 (0)511 - 36 58 472
> Fax:   +49 (0)1805 - 233633 - 11044
> mobil: +49 (0)173 - 83 93 417
> Email: s.rose@emma-stil.de, sebastian_rose@gmx.de
> Http:  www.emma-stil.de