From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: James Levine Subject: would take more than an org-mode strip-down. Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:04:23 -0400 Message-ID: <92B42F15-B849-473D-9E4C-F513A5DD80E8@me.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:53065) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R8b9z-0002bT-31 for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:09:36 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R8b9x-0002DD-CS for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:09:35 -0400 Received: from asmtpout024.mac.com ([17.148.16.99]:62082) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R8b9x-0002Cw-5D for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 13:09:33 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.10] (50-12-94-0.nyc.clearwire-wmx.net [50.12.94.0]) by asmtp024.mac.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7u4-23.01(7.0.4.23.0) 64bit (built Aug 10 2011)) with ESMTPSA id <0LS6001K8YBPS670@asmtp024.mac.com> for Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Sep 2011 10:09:29 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Greetings, As an expert end-user but outside the computer science field, I=92ve = felt there to be a high cost of entry for working in org-mode. I like = the idea very much, as I am trying to strip down to an Autofocus system = and take a more intuitive, frictionless approach. Because I=92m not = following the play-by-play on the gnu boards, I thought I=92d zoom out = and tell you what a consumer experience is like: 1) It=92s not that there isn=92t enough documentation, it=92s that = there=92s too much of it. Imagine that setting up a wordpress database is probably too = much for the average person. You go to wordpress.org (and at this point = you=92d already need to read the fine print or you=92d probably point to = wordpress.com) and the button simply tells you to download =93here=94. = Now what? In other words, if you want to expand popularity among = end-users, not coders, there needs to be a middle ground: the visual = step-by-step needs to be uncluttered by additional description. = Org-mode is further obscured by the fact that other services, a text = editor and such need to be pointed to as well in the =93getting started = process." I need to know why I=92m being forwarded to an external web = page or why I need to read on between each download link, or how to keep = track of each link if each one is taking me to a separate page. You = wouldn=92t want someone telling you the history of every landmark that = you passed if they were giving you driving instructions, would you? The = verbose approach doesn=92t actually help retention, it floods it. The = gnu support community, like this email, is very heavily text-based. 2) Some things are just better with a gui. I=92m referring specifically to the more popularized use of tags = or =93keywords.=94 Most all the file management clients fail at this = somewhere. You are requiring people to be literate, as in secondary = school spelling-NOT culture, not just in a single instance of clarity, = but in a manner that can be consistently repeated, while you=92re = catering to an audience that probably has a higher than average = proportion of dyslexics, autistics, and college drop-outs in its midst.=20= Furthermore, tagging conventions are easy to break, and most End-Users = won=92t know to instill them to begin with. =93Have I been using the = plural of my common and collective nouns? What about that time I = hashtagged a task to myself in my email and I put the tag in the Subject = heading? Did I spell it the same way my tags were set up back on my = desktop?=94 It=92s too easy to orphan tags, spell them wrong, flip a p = with a q. Without a pull up, cash-register-like cheat sheet that lets = you touch the tags that you already made, one will leave a trail of junk = mark-up. Not to mention, free tagging does not endorse a constrained = vocabulary as it would, say, if you were trying to figure out what kind = of lettuce someone was buying and you worked the register. I=92m also = inclined to believe that crossing something out with my finger, or = putting a check in a checkbox is more intuitive and less prone to error = than managing "[x]=94s in a document. 3) the 2nd problem ties in with this. Without a constrained tagging = vocabulary and other conventions, an org-mode task system is not that = easy to subscribe to when trying to encourage a team to get on board. = The list is not inherently intuitive to all end-users. What is logic to = one person is not logic to the next. (This may come as a surprise to = many coders). 4) The master org-mode file will get lost in the shuffle. My litmus test = for a good file management system is =93if I=92m sick or thankfully on a = beach that day, can everyone else to whom my work pertains, understand = for themselves how to incorporate what they need from me?=94 Are my = naming conventions clear? Are my directory structures clear? Can people = find them on their own, or are they going to call me while I=92m trying = to enjoy the beach? Can I effectively be a =93ghost in the machine=94 = for my institution? Or have I made people dependent upon me for the = petty fact that my workflows are not understood by anyone else?=20 Again, feeding off point 3, org-mode does little to instill good = file management habits. I do appreciate that the plain text approach = builds off simplicity rather than the adhered complexity of a database. = Nonetheless, if I open up =93Things=94, for example (I don=92t use it = myself), as an app to keep my tasks, I know there=92s a central = repository for these stray little database entry =93tasks=94. If I=92m = out of the office, I can tell whoever is working on my assignments to = open up =93Things,=94 or I can share this with them. Because org-mode = doesn=92t reinforce where files are saved to or how many files are = accessed for my various projects, there=92s plenty of wiggle room for = bad file management habits to come into play. Instead of telling my = colleague to open =93Things=94, I need to tell them, "look in my = documents folder, open this file with this app. When you=92re done with = this by 1p, I saved the task list for the catering event this evening in = my dropbox. Look under documents, Jim=92s stuff." You see where this is = going.=20 An org-mode text document is just too flimsy to stand alone in the sea = of files on a computer. That=92s why evernote is successful-it=92s a = more orderly place for scraps. People used to muck up folders and drag = stuff to their desktop with the same caliber of content. If you held = your desktop as sacred, or your Emacs platform, what then happens when = these other =93temporary=94 odds and ends nonetheless compete with your = focus?=20 5) I don=92t subscribe to the notion that all ideas begin to take form = through an Outline. Outlines were something pounded into lots of heads = as kids, and they work for some and not for others. To me, they are far = too linear of an invention to trust with germinating ideas and projects. = My outline skills are epically good, but I still don=92t find the = outline as the key tool for repurposing and leveraging divergent ideas = (or for note-taking for that matter). And again, with an awareness = management system like org-mode, how would you effectively create an = Outline for Everything? Would that be any easier to navigate than the = index card that I made just for today in my back pocket? Then to play = the provocateur, if I can=92t create an Outline for Everything how many = little baskets of Anythings do I want to enforce in my life? Or should I = just start with my work? (then what happens to the rest of my life? = Should I use refrigerator magnets?) Where do I put these separate = Outlines if I can=92t look in the same place at any time for them? How = do they fit in with each other? The mobile implementation of org-mode = thus far further confuses the matter-it places these divergent files in = a file browser. How does that actually help me work the system? What = about a front end? Perhaps some instruction on bridging the free-association, brain = storming, linear thinking, mind-mapping, UML, media files and = inspiration, concepts directly into an Org-mode file would be of help. = If I understood org-mode, I might even be the person to do it. Many = ideas will never see a formal outline first (even if the concept of an = outline latently exists)-only my software design documents or other = specification sheets would show through with such formality. Please tell me if and where these points will be addressed, as their a = slim chance of my renavigating to the live thread where I found your = email (see point 1). Hope this message is in the right hands. I=92m = incredibly grateful for this line of communication and for the work you = are doing, and I want to make this work. James Levine-East Village, NYC=