From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id AA+aGkTcsGFi+AAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 17:24:36 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id uNdUFkTcsGEzTQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 16:24:36 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEF0120A23 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:24:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36398 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muzkA-0000x2-Bu for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 11:24:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:39332) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muzjN-0000wu-1H for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 11:23:45 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:53311) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1muzjK-0004VK-MM for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 11:23:44 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1638980618; bh=voQi//4N710xmvUi82vCkHVrZmbfnxwFNbxBagAdku4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=ig7+YxT7rBZcFPf63suV+21aVOWZ4NG/WTcmsYRyJIEWx9hSkdrczbCgO+d3FwVRi dhOicq1PgJ7EQXIxSNx0szAT00KVDd5YJZ20/Zc+TQz+fPayUZeVmucBHeLYes/lOw RP2TEpomoQ0admbfNcd5PgJf880QPYbxxcc/7u2Y= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.27.113]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb006 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1N30ZN-1mXzL52ONB-012xNi; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 17:23:38 +0100 References: <87tufnbj1w.fsf@localhost> <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 17:16:20 +0100 In-reply-to: <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:YUdOOry+Muz5KoD3bVwSNVuIs0ob2Y9X3J0Oj1cF3s0e9HijFjv +aSyEh8q31ddmVcRxVjUGOivdzi2oXcYtHH4Cum7MNqwdTsRko7ll0hRh4AwI4TActsTstS vlD+FnwseBuKeKgp2ncF5j3A6lDLFhcvnt/QGgr3q9C0bWPXfLbQ+7Koph2EoQrM52yhH4M RlG4QndtXszXBOFPY2UCQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:tlgc9y/7KZ0=:4unJORRMboPrNYh76FPDYP c6qX0ZC83gZT8HJKPd+nyV6Dd4TY+EmZGyWxxLz0OHGIgUgtoNWz/EvhbUv6gmWxUiU4chn3a j6A32d+AstwFFJ7vjjwyRHVDYrd3hTN+gzFDdf+XskGvyGyWBGrNnSWbHvREsIg3xniuf6JmR vYmbC6T10vPxax7qbXmy8ThhTOxfMbP4mxsko+kWNCPab82eOQJ8Ux7BTp12qv5pNEOB49aza wXWrvCip0drcBJoGKYM906UNONcG7dUEn1kEqWBkQrCURwrnRT2o+A8i9utM0cJOVaOZI596j vCdegv42sL/R4kLmysATs6qUlP0Jy5kk3J1gTzeVQZ/wNSZgC9TXjghxoNrmnUQOdaBMLbghL VaqgQEI7m8PahTYA4tdW4vRTkk5qJb4WUUe6XaaUMo/j8A+EsRrLNO2WcaQ7dJpJoKTMl3Rq7 TQwsJuBpKCAEWY+YuNdHziivVMChvl5ZX0MNcRm/LhmmaM8cxs1W4NFqx3DqtFrOwrSmi2Od5 YBlaEIAIzmT/2AAyYjtEhHdz5ZT0Zl2asuBwIPycbQ18PlMF8/i+tQDgpWE0nhJSDdDM7SuNb SNAq7+eB2IPU/V8PYpEsLt7oTgHkZMi24XNuwydNiGTaXJKbjYzEaEG2o5zPenb8tvWT3QnRJ 9HJxK7KEMBWU+j8pD04TmjZN4y3W82U3NwX/OjHmBP05K42RCGX4e+ZngRPJnHXX7E9fM/CA0 RL2pUvpKG2MpkSzam2hzRMcNSaI+kuw1ouUoUqdnHkUgYOdQjyrkgwANzdESGrprLDUdA7LD8 31MguBVQVDYG54R7ow/gn0hAHU3IIyIOCt2ayY97er1gRO7kkPKJTWy7+f+dwqvccnkPi7FwF kxUV4z23PXECYDS/lyHuuHWszIjyipykePrW0MWV7a3v2Itrvd6F1fcL6SQ5XVDjHH3mkyEMC DOk+7aOwIkjVRsOm14AggO/fHXbqY0SYce1viol3ychpb20Gzi0YO7oRfugSXcEFBesLMHbmy NAmh2PKyZ1oPeiZgfHDYUq/L42KCD5mu2A/b5blTZS8GdvLKgMASOeO9a1uOhMrX3ovr07f8F 76hoE5PXLPI4No= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.3; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Ihor Radchenko Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638980676; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=voQi//4N710xmvUi82vCkHVrZmbfnxwFNbxBagAdku4=; b=UqtfyPkfZmwAII6vog+8echVbIMBFVabChpj8iNqiEeuLjRUajvAVwQF/PFMGUlgzBaNCg 0EZ9RzFpg3LELFz/+504VT5EqY6/lgnpzpkpNdbPj/OOLpK49rzHEb2MGKgpzqjZ3n7YRr lrX2DYRexY+f8T5Cxcqm2z3FewVzGf++T/OtrvwjPztUM5WjmJkuOXSORoyJswspDUa6ne RQ0D4YaJdoJH10XHXlkbEy5c1/qK2LMNmTDse9EBRea+rifh7Byux89DU5T8hwk7Hhqi4O tObqayRj+9M51gohQ88FM8+srWZEKz002SFuBhbJtkJPsvzqjx91kYAC5SX8DQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638980676; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CAGwleHEPHxkHddXM6v2TOvLzneo7g7qFFYzc8fmEn99FQhVXD4QpjUmUFfSPWe/FDMIlZ DeqYXwWk6DSFSPiFmF3mPCq6JNFlTFozAPvhZBdgwk6E5u5+PJkFydxyDbjgnBrAKc74lv AcVsYyDX1HMwmp7a/CcF3Dd74YW9SGyq9dSp4vlX8XCeNb5GRpJy8mcsZ8aNeYFItTeMHL ETfza6ICdF7aj8CJsLp9B0kJ4X6XPzsGbQknc57fGuK2j/s+ud8zHtXq5C2hmRouCgK0zp 3vg7VPLW8AsAiABw1DcmU48RZi6siLQud8tbm8Fplq3g5pa30mNaExr6CY0p8g== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=ig7+YxT7; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=web.de (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.05 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=ig7+YxT7; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=web.de (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EEF0120A23 X-Spam-Score: -3.05 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: tUFv/xL3fSac --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Cross writes: > Ihor Radchenko writes: > >> Tim Cross writes: >> >>> Meanwhile, Emacs development continues and new features/capabilities >>> continue to be added. In particular, a new feature is added which is >>> extremely powerful and would be a huge benefit for Emacs org-mode users. >>> However, there is a problem. In order to take advantage of this new >>> feature, significant changes are required for the specification. This >>> will result in implementations requiring considerable work in order to >>> update them to the new specification. >> >> I disagree. We already need to care about back-compatibility of Org >> syntax (think of org documents written years ago). Major changes to >> syntax are very unlikely even without considering third-party software. >> And, by the way, remember the existing "third party" Elisp packages >> (think of Org roam, for example). We do not want to break them. >> > > Backwards compatibility is important and changes should never be done > lightly. However, that doesn't mean they don't occur (we have already > had breaking changes, so old org files are likely to have issues > already). Backwards compatibility can also become a burden and I already spent several hours fixing old presentations, because of org format changes, so I want to put in a strong vote for backwards compatibility. If you have 1400 slides of lectures, all carefully laid out to convey information as best as possible, and you realize a few days before the lecture when you want to update them that the layout is broken, because of some minor change in interpretation of empty headlines in org-beamer export so you have to go over each slide individually to make sure that nothing is cut off and no layout is broken =E2=80=94 and check the compile = to latex many times until the layout is working again =E2=80=94 that is a huge cost. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmGw3AkQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD6zsTD/9fKZnBJXGW5/2rcQT/FZzg/A/gjirQMlcF Up6+ILB9v9bbJ7xD/nC2f+3fZNt406E7E6Z33ezCNu3+AsMkyD09YNhSD+CuhkpK V6MlPAJGFckOx7wN8+FeuJNw/Q/Tea2/ahzcDYnB5ZBcE/nWqmhGuUhFDtuhaVQE HRzGedgC2elOjyUmALQYDa+zBc/pIEyqZSkmE3Qm91iv6QKP1qLAIVYiSfAthWRt r6Ye0k+JStcjJgD7kt7okc+Gb5wnGawwGXaTertrkfd3AEmbOnx7sCE9BmaHu6CC RJh5RIPm0ETeFVh+3txJjrPFo89qgyQwYee8CNcZLPGZl1gVRhxn9V3Qz/4J3koU RIqiSQTFbpsOBsq6WGuIlibEfH6Ey4gpW2ha3OXHO0uFoJuZdL2Ri7pB+ve54J1K N0Z7hO2KF070WBisA/NwUUmKnc+N/X2/rsENCzPvHSckM5pP7Wg6Hg4Q3vetKGlT avY8kHyfC9at8C3tPd2w7uVEviMjxXrinlBmwTvcfh/gOyeqAeFK3OYkDl7WCGUb DgoSgaGNbT70RxKDAcZ9X7v+BWVjXk2ohkoLpRtmRyLZFEJJyn3q55V8S/Vyx4yf SdEu11w4HfDd1mL7bsLcc2TWV0cyJRRCvE8BDrDei/rZxpA4+Qumrt96AxBXaNr3 OvzPsII/YojEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmGw3AkQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSACWA/4hGVXOBqbWCA6gEdEVTOG+eRdE JDFSJiOSVMRsTRdJNCxUhY/FMfJxZZvjwXzEVpBkAsE29UgKDMMqaxMnlPDKCJtt K1Op/GC+9N/aQn5Dwm65vUp0qdKfmLCz3zH7XJRphmBCp/Vaoed4BDS+qTeMrfRT SxZSd71OT0zJ+16LjQ== =I66a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--