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* Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
@ 2019-10-23 13:13 Christoph Michelbach
  2019-10-23 13:24 ` Fraga, Eric
                   ` (2 more replies)
  0 siblings, 3 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Michelbach @ 2019-10-23 13:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

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I often write documents in org mode that are going to be exported to PDF 
via LaTeX and find myself writing something like

    \paragraph{Lorem Ipsum} Duis ac nibh cursus, elementum ipsum quis,
    faucibus sapien.

    \paragraph{Interdum} Cras volutpat, sem eu semper ultrices, risus
    lacus tempor erat, eu pulvinar magna arcu sit amet massa.


a lot, therefore mixing very simple Latex into my org documents simply 
because I want titled paragraphs. This comes with the further 
disadvantage that there is no syntax highlighting for it while editing.

This is despite the fact that org mode already has syntax for titled 
things. Whenever we need a description list, we write:

    - Lorem Ipsum :: Duis ac nibh cursus, elementum ipsum quis, faucibus
    sapien.
    - Interdum :: Cras volutpat, sem eu semper ultrices, risus lacus
    tempor erat, eu pulvinar magna arcu sit amet massa.


I think we should be able to use the same syntax outside of lists:

    Lorem Ipsum :: Duis ac nibh cursus, elementum ipsum quis, faucibus
    sapien.

    Interdum :: Cras volutpat, sem eu semper ultrices, risus lacus
    tempor erat, eu pulvinar magna arcu sit amet massa.


--
Christoph Michelbach

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 13:13 Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs Christoph Michelbach
@ 2019-10-23 13:24 ` Fraga, Eric
  2019-10-23 13:51   ` Christoph Michelbach
  2019-10-23 16:44 ` Nicolas Goaziou
  2019-10-24  5:20 ` Fraga, Eric
  2 siblings, 1 reply; 9+ messages in thread
From: Fraga, Eric @ 2019-10-23 13:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christoph Michelbach; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

On Wednesday, 23 Oct 2019 at 15:13, Christoph Michelbach wrote:
> I often write documents in org mode that are going to be exported to
> PDF via LaTeX and find myself writing something like
>
>    \paragraph{Lorem Ipsum} Duis ac nibh cursus, elementum ipsum quis,
>    faucibus sapien.

[...]

> I think we should be able to use the same syntax outside of lists:

Why not use a further headline if you are exporting to LaTeX?  In the
default configuration, the 4th level heading corresponds to \paragraph
in LaTeX.

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.2.6-552-g8c5a78

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 13:24 ` Fraga, Eric
@ 2019-10-23 13:51   ` Christoph Michelbach
  2019-10-23 14:18     ` Dominik Schrempf
  2019-10-23 14:20     ` Fraga, Eric
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Christoph Michelbach @ 2019-10-23 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Fraga, Eric; +Cc: emacs-orgmode


On 2019-10-23 15:24, Fraga, Eric wrote:
> Why not use a further headline if you are exporting to LaTeX?  In the
> default configuration, the 4th level heading corresponds to \paragraph
> in LaTeX.
>

1. Because headlines and paragraphs are different things. One is used 
for hierarchical structuring and description, the other only for 
description.
2. Because that'd mean skipping hierarchical levels when using 
paragraphs on a high level.
3. Because headlines are collapsed by default. I realize the default can 
be changed but if you like hierarchical levels to be collapsed, you 
still have to expand paragraphs far up individually or expand all the 
hierarchical levels below by dobule-tabbing.

--
Christoph Michelbach

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 13:51   ` Christoph Michelbach
@ 2019-10-23 14:18     ` Dominik Schrempf
  2019-10-23 14:55       ` Loris Bennett
  2019-10-24  7:50       ` Julius Müller
  2019-10-23 14:20     ` Fraga, Eric
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Dominik Schrempf @ 2019-10-23 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode; +Cc: Fraga, Eric

Hello!

I agree with this proposal. At some point I already asked if the following
structure is possible:

#+begin_example
* Title
** Section I
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor
tellus. Donec pretium posuere tellus. Proin quam nisl, tincidunt et, mattis
eget, convallis nec, purus. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis
parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Nulla posuere. Donec vitae dolor.
Nullam tristique diam non turpis. Cras placerat accumsan nulla. Nullam rutrum.
Nam vestibulum accumsan nisl.

Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but doesn't deserve a
section title. Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but doesn't
deserve a section title. Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but
doesn't deserve a section title. Another paragraph that is not related to
Section I, but doesn't deserve a section title.
#+end_example

With titled paragraphs, this document structure could be achieved.

All the best,
Dominik

Christoph Michelbach <michelbach94@gmail.com> writes:

> On 2019-10-23 15:24, Fraga, Eric wrote:
>> Why not use a further headline if you are exporting to LaTeX?  In the
>> default configuration, the 4th level heading corresponds to \paragraph
>> in LaTeX.
>>
>
> 1. Because headlines and paragraphs are different things. One is used for
> hierarchical structuring and description, the other only for description.
> 2. Because that'd mean skipping hierarchical levels when using paragraphs on a
> high level.
> 3. Because headlines are collapsed by default. I realize the default can be
> changed but if you like hierarchical levels to be collapsed, you still have to
> expand paragraphs far up individually or expand all the hierarchical levels
> below by dobule-tabbing.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 13:51   ` Christoph Michelbach
  2019-10-23 14:18     ` Dominik Schrempf
@ 2019-10-23 14:20     ` Fraga, Eric
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Fraga, Eric @ 2019-10-23 14:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christoph Michelbach; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Cristoph,

okay, paragraph headings are not what you want.  And lists aren't
suitable either.  I don't think there is any other way and I predict
that adding :: syntax in arbitrary positions will not be acceptable as a
development to the language but let's see what others think.  I have no
strong feelings either way.

Just some rebuttals on your points:

On Wednesday, 23 Oct 2019 at 15:51, Christoph Michelbach wrote:
> 1. Because headlines and paragraphs are different things. One is used
> for hierarchical structuring and description, the other only for 
> description.

Well, that's a personal view, not a strict definition.

> 2. Because that'd mean skipping hierarchical levels when using
> paragraphs on a high level.

Org allows this just fine.  I often have 4th level headings within a 1st
level heading with no intervening levels.

> 3. Because headlines are collapsed by default. I realize the default
> can be changed but if you like hierarchical levels to be collapsed,
> you still have to expand paragraphs far up individually or expand all
> the hierarchical levels below by dobule-tabbing.

You can set visibility on individual headlines using properties.  

I always start my (long) documents with all headings to a certain level
exposed (org-content 3) so paragraphs are hidden by default.  You might
find this useful.  Or maybe not! ;-)

-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.2.6-552-g8c5a78

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 14:18     ` Dominik Schrempf
@ 2019-10-23 14:55       ` Loris Bennett
  2019-10-24  7:50       ` Julius Müller
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Loris Bennett @ 2019-10-23 14:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Hi,

What would be an actual example of a "paragraph that is not related to
Section I, but doesn't deserve a section title"?

Cheers,

Loris

Dominik Schrempf <dominik.schrempf@gmail.com> writes:

> Hello!
>
> I agree with this proposal. At some point I already asked if the following
> structure is possible:
>
> #+begin_example
> * Title
> ** Section I
> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor
> tellus. Donec pretium posuere tellus. Proin quam nisl, tincidunt et, mattis
> eget, convallis nec, purus. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis
> parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Nulla posuere. Donec vitae dolor.
> Nullam tristique diam non turpis. Cras placerat accumsan nulla. Nullam rutrum.
> Nam vestibulum accumsan nisl.
>
> Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but doesn't deserve a
> section title. Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but doesn't
> deserve a section title. Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but
> doesn't deserve a section title. Another paragraph that is not related to
> Section I, but doesn't deserve a section title.
> #+end_example
>
> With titled paragraphs, this document structure could be achieved.
>
> All the best,
> Dominik
>
> Christoph Michelbach <michelbach94@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 2019-10-23 15:24, Fraga, Eric wrote:
>>> Why not use a further headline if you are exporting to LaTeX?  In the
>>> default configuration, the 4th level heading corresponds to \paragraph
>>> in LaTeX.
>>>
>>
>> 1. Because headlines and paragraphs are different things. One is used for
>> hierarchical structuring and description, the other only for description.
>> 2. Because that'd mean skipping hierarchical levels when using paragraphs on a
>> high level.
>> 3. Because headlines are collapsed by default. I realize the default can be
>> changed but if you like hierarchical levels to be collapsed, you still have to
>> expand paragraphs far up individually or expand all the hierarchical levels
>> below by dobule-tabbing.
>
>
>
-- 
Dr. Loris Bennett (Mr.)
ZEDAT, Freie Universität Berlin         Email loris.bennett@fu-berlin.de

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 13:13 Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs Christoph Michelbach
  2019-10-23 13:24 ` Fraga, Eric
@ 2019-10-23 16:44 ` Nicolas Goaziou
  2019-10-24  5:20 ` Fraga, Eric
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas Goaziou @ 2019-10-23 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christoph Michelbach; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hello,

Christoph Michelbach <michelbach94@gmail.com> writes:

> I often write documents in org mode that are going to be exported to
> PDF via LaTeX and find myself writing something like
>
>    \paragraph{Lorem Ipsum} Duis ac nibh cursus, elementum ipsum quis,
>    faucibus sapien.
>
>    \paragraph{Interdum} Cras volutpat, sem eu semper ultrices, risus
>    lacus tempor erat, eu pulvinar magna arcu sit amet massa.
>
> a lot, therefore mixing very simple Latex into my org documents simply
> because I want titled paragraphs. This comes with the further
> disadvantage that there is no syntax highlighting for it while
> editing.

There is nothing wrong with using simple LaTeX in Org files, if you
intent to export to PDF. Org doesn't provide equivalents for \bigskip,
or \vspace, or \hfill…

Anyhow, you could use a macro, if you want to make it look more Org-ish,
or try to use keywords, e.g.,

    #+attr_latex: :title Whatever
    Foo...

Changing the syntax is the very last thing to consider, IMO.

Regards,

-- 
Nicolas Goaziou

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 13:13 Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs Christoph Michelbach
  2019-10-23 13:24 ` Fraga, Eric
  2019-10-23 16:44 ` Nicolas Goaziou
@ 2019-10-24  5:20 ` Fraga, Eric
  2 siblings, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Fraga, Eric @ 2019-10-24  5:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Christoph Michelbach; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

On Wednesday, 23 Oct 2019 at 15:13, Christoph Michelbach wrote:
> This comes with the further disadvantage that there is no syntax
> highlighting for it while editing.

I forgot to add that you could use hi-lock-mode to highlight your
\paragraph statements.
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50, Org release_9.2.6-552-g8c5a78

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

* Re: Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs
  2019-10-23 14:18     ` Dominik Schrempf
  2019-10-23 14:55       ` Loris Bennett
@ 2019-10-24  7:50       ` Julius Müller
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 9+ messages in thread
From: Julius Müller @ 2019-10-24  7:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Am 23.10.19 um 16:18 schrieb Dominik Schrempf:
> I agree with this proposal. At some point I already asked if the following
> structure is possible:
>
> #+begin_example
> * Title
> ** Section I
> Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Donec hendrerit tempor
> tellus. Donec pretium posuere tellus. Proin quam nisl, tincidunt et, mattis
> eget, convallis nec, purus. Cum sociis natoque penatibus et magnis dis
> parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus. Nulla posuere. Donec vitae dolor.
> Nullam tristique diam non turpis. Cras placerat accumsan nulla. Nullam rutrum.
> Nam vestibulum accumsan nisl.
>
> Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but doesn't deserve a
> section title. Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but doesn't
> deserve a section title. Another paragraph that is not related to Section I, but
> doesn't deserve a section title. Another paragraph that is not related to
> Section I, but doesn't deserve a section title.
> #+end_example
>
> With titled paragraphs, this document structure could be achieved.

Only if you are very restrictive about it, as you hit a fundamental
problem of org markup here, a problem it shares with (La)TeX, HTML, all
printed books I'm aware of, and a lot of other formats. Org and (La)TeX
only markup the start of a section, not its end. Thus it would be
difficult to tell your construct apart from other kind of structures.

Contrary to your view, in the (La)TeX-world \paragraph is usually seen
as just another hierarchical level of document structuring. It is a
heading (with a weird default of not standing on a line of its own), and
it does NOT solely belong to the one paragraph it starts. In fact, with
your view, (La)TeX's \subparagraph macro would not make any sense at
all. That means, adding \paragraph in your sense will break document
structure the moment you also have nesting deeper than 3 (or 4 for
book-like formats).

Julius

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 9+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2019-10-24  7:50 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 9+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2019-10-23 13:13 Feature Proposal: Titled Paragraphs Christoph Michelbach
2019-10-23 13:24 ` Fraga, Eric
2019-10-23 13:51   ` Christoph Michelbach
2019-10-23 14:18     ` Dominik Schrempf
2019-10-23 14:55       ` Loris Bennett
2019-10-24  7:50       ` Julius Müller
2019-10-23 14:20     ` Fraga, Eric
2019-10-23 16:44 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2019-10-24  5:20 ` Fraga, Eric

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