From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Bernt Hansen Subject: Re: Org expert mode? Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:22:20 -0500 Message-ID: <87vczqftn7.fsf@norang.ca> References: <87vczre1eb.fsf@altern.org> <20110310.222520.32509650.joost@snow.nl> <8739muac16.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Return-path: Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58283 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1PxpBe-0002wt-2v for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:22:31 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxpBc-00086W-0N for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:22:29 -0500 Received: from mho-01-ewr.mailhop.org ([204.13.248.71]:61737) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1PxpBb-00086Q-UQ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:22:27 -0500 In-Reply-To: <8739muac16.fsf@gmail.com> (Eric Schulte's message of "Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:41:41 -0700") List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org To: Eric Schulte Cc: bzg@altern.org, Joost Helberg , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Hi, I also agree with Joost and Eric. I don't think hiding the menu on export is a good thing in the long run. Org-mode is a moving target and new things show up in the menu over time -- and I for one would miss the new stuff if the menu was always off. I do however like the 'expert' setting in org-fast-tag-selection-single-key and I think being able to turn sections of org-mode into expert mode is a good thing - but these need to be areas that are not likely to get new functionality down the road that the user wouldn't be aware of. Regards, Bernt "Eric Schulte" writes: > Hi, > > I tend to agree with Joost's sentiments. > > In my opinion the current Org-mode---despite all of the power lurking > just beneath the surface---is entirely usable as a very simple plain > text notes buffer. The user need know nothing more than how to press > tab on a headline to expand-contract it's contents. > > This is how I try to introduce Org-mode to new users. > > "Just think of it as plain text notes, and whenever you realize you > want a new feature, look in the manual... chances are someone has > already implemented it." > > Best -- Eric > > Joost Helberg writes: > >> Bastien and others, >> >> When I worked in Hoofddorp in the early 90's, I travelled 2.5 hours by >> train every day. I reserved half of the train-time every single day >> for a year checking out GNU Emacs stuff I didn't understand on my >> notebook. This helped me a lot in going places (aka major modes, elisp >> code and, later, customizations) I didn't dare visiting before. >> >> The same is true for most of the *Customization* stuff. Seeing things >> beyond your boundaries of understanding satisfies curiosity. Checking out >> stuff you don't completely understand is part of the Emacs journey. A >> journey which is a lot more exciting than any other virtual software >> inspired journey I've encountered. >> >> The creation of an `Expert mode' will make the exploration of new >> features `by accident' or by ambitious curiosity less likely. I think >> introducing an expert mode (is the plain and simple org-mode not >> already quite for experts already?) a bad thing. >> >> Then the semantics of `expert' come around. Expert in what field? >> Organisation? Elisp? Time-clocking? Org-mode key bindings? There must >> be over 5 different experts in using org-mode, which may be even >> overlapping. >> >> Personally I don't mind superfluous messages in GNU Emacs, if any. >> They disappear fast enough and don't appear to slow down things; >> though I might be wrong here of course. >> >> Last, but not least, org-mode users are honest people, at least to >> themselves they are, they must be! Many of them will have trouble >> admitting they're an expert in org-mode; they won't tick the >> box. They'll miss features they would otherwise try. >> >> Org-mode is the best invention since sliced bread and if not, GNU >> Emacs is, keep up the good work! >> >> many regards, >> >> Joost Helberg >> >>>>>>> "Bastien" == Bastien writes: >> > Subject: [O] Org expert mode? >> > From: Bastien >> > To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org >> > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:05:32 +0100 >> >> > Hi all, >> >> > Org tries to stay as simple/accessible as possible for newbie and as >> > complete/flexible as possible for power users. >> >> > The documentation and the UI are central for this: the documentation >> > should promote core features, document complex ones, and give pointers >> > on how to hack Org -- it does that already IMO; the UI should give >> > access to core features and give hints on complex ones, so that the >> > user can learn more. >> >> > I've just added the ability to run a custom function for bulk agenda >> > actions (thanks to Puneeth for the patch!) This is clearly for power >> > users -- or those who are willing to take the time to find functions >> > that we might document in Worg. >> >> > So I naturally thought of something like an "Org Expert mode": when >> > turned off, the UI would *not* give access to complex features and >> > perhaps display more helpful messages on simple ones; when turned on, >> > Org would have a less verbose UI (think of the C-c C-e window, do we >> > really want to *read* it all the times?) and give access to all the >> > complex features. >> >> > This is really just a call for ideas/comments -- I wonder if people >> > already came accross such an idea and and what they think. >> >> > I'm myself not convinced: it's a good thing that Org doesn't need an >> > Expert mode so far, it means newbies are not confused by the UI, and >> > experts are not frustrated by it either. But I expect neat features >> > can emerge from the discussion. >> >> > Thanks for your thoughts! >> >> > -- >> > Bastien > > -- Bernt