From: Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca>
To: Eric Schulte <schulte.eric@gmail.com>
Cc: bzg@altern.org, Joost Helberg <joost@snow.nl>, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Org expert mode?
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:22:20 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87vczqftn7.fsf@norang.ca> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <8739muac16.fsf@gmail.com> (Eric Schulte's message of "Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:41:41 -0700")
Hi,
I also agree with Joost and Eric. I don't think hiding the menu on
export is a good thing in the long run. Org-mode is a moving target and
new things show up in the menu over time -- and I for one would miss the
new stuff if the menu was always off.
I do however like the 'expert' setting in
org-fast-tag-selection-single-key and I think being able to turn
sections of org-mode into expert mode is a good thing - but these need
to be areas that are not likely to get new functionality down the road
that the user wouldn't be aware of.
Regards,
Bernt
"Eric Schulte" <schulte.eric@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi,
>
> I tend to agree with Joost's sentiments.
>
> In my opinion the current Org-mode---despite all of the power lurking
> just beneath the surface---is entirely usable as a very simple plain
> text notes buffer. The user need know nothing more than how to press
> tab on a headline to expand-contract it's contents.
>
> This is how I try to introduce Org-mode to new users.
>
> "Just think of it as plain text notes, and whenever you realize you
> want a new feature, look in the manual... chances are someone has
> already implemented it."
>
> Best -- Eric
>
> Joost Helberg <joost@snow.nl> writes:
>
>> Bastien and others,
>>
>> When I worked in Hoofddorp in the early 90's, I travelled 2.5 hours by
>> train every day. I reserved half of the train-time every single day
>> for a year checking out GNU Emacs stuff I didn't understand on my
>> notebook. This helped me a lot in going places (aka major modes, elisp
>> code and, later, customizations) I didn't dare visiting before.
>>
>> The same is true for most of the *Customization* stuff. Seeing things
>> beyond your boundaries of understanding satisfies curiosity. Checking out
>> stuff you don't completely understand is part of the Emacs journey. A
>> journey which is a lot more exciting than any other virtual software
>> inspired journey I've encountered.
>>
>> The creation of an `Expert mode' will make the exploration of new
>> features `by accident' or by ambitious curiosity less likely. I think
>> introducing an expert mode (is the plain and simple org-mode not
>> already quite for experts already?) a bad thing.
>>
>> Then the semantics of `expert' come around. Expert in what field?
>> Organisation? Elisp? Time-clocking? Org-mode key bindings? There must
>> be over 5 different experts in using org-mode, which may be even
>> overlapping.
>>
>> Personally I don't mind superfluous messages in GNU Emacs, if any.
>> They disappear fast enough and don't appear to slow down things;
>> though I might be wrong here of course.
>>
>> Last, but not least, org-mode users are honest people, at least to
>> themselves they are, they must be! Many of them will have trouble
>> admitting they're an expert in org-mode; they won't tick the
>> box. They'll miss features they would otherwise try.
>>
>> Org-mode is the best invention since sliced bread and if not, GNU
>> Emacs is, keep up the good work!
>>
>> many regards,
>>
>> Joost Helberg
>>
>>>>>>> "Bastien" == Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>> > Subject: [O] Org expert mode?
>> > From: Bastien <bzg@altern.org>
>> > To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
>> > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:05:32 +0100
>>
>> > Hi all,
>>
>> > Org tries to stay as simple/accessible as possible for newbie and as
>> > complete/flexible as possible for power users.
>>
>> > The documentation and the UI are central for this: the documentation
>> > should promote core features, document complex ones, and give pointers
>> > on how to hack Org -- it does that already IMO; the UI should give
>> > access to core features and give hints on complex ones, so that the
>> > user can learn more.
>>
>> > I've just added the ability to run a custom function for bulk agenda
>> > actions (thanks to Puneeth for the patch!) This is clearly for power
>> > users -- or those who are willing to take the time to find functions
>> > that we might document in Worg.
>>
>> > So I naturally thought of something like an "Org Expert mode": when
>> > turned off, the UI would *not* give access to complex features and
>> > perhaps display more helpful messages on simple ones; when turned on,
>> > Org would have a less verbose UI (think of the C-c C-e window, do we
>> > really want to *read* it all the times?) and give access to all the
>> > complex features.
>>
>> > This is really just a call for ideas/comments -- I wonder if people
>> > already came accross such an idea and and what they think.
>>
>> > I'm myself not convinced: it's a good thing that Org doesn't need an
>> > Expert mode so far, it means newbies are not confused by the UI, and
>> > experts are not frustrated by it either. But I expect neat features
>> > can emerge from the discussion.
>>
>> > Thanks for your thoughts!
>>
>> > --
>> > Bastien
>
>
--
Bernt
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2011-03-10 23:22 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 21+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2011-03-10 10:05 Org expert mode? Bastien
2011-03-10 10:11 ` Bastien
2011-03-10 10:36 ` Rainer M Krug
2011-03-20 2:08 ` Matt Lundin
2011-03-21 7:25 ` Rainer M Krug
2011-03-10 12:38 ` Greg Troxel
2011-03-10 14:14 ` John Hendy
2011-03-10 10:35 ` Filippo A. Salustri
2011-03-10 15:30 ` Julien Danjou
2011-03-10 17:43 ` Scott Randby
2011-03-10 18:46 ` Samuel Wales
2011-03-10 23:46 ` Suvayu Ali
2011-03-10 19:33 ` Robert Pluim
2011-03-10 21:25 ` Joost Helberg
2011-03-10 21:41 ` Eric Schulte
2011-03-10 23:22 ` Bernt Hansen [this message]
2011-03-11 8:28 ` Bastien
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2011-03-10 13:12 Rustom Mody
2011-03-10 13:44 ` Rainer M Krug
2011-03-10 14:11 ` Matthew Sauer
2011-03-10 22:37 ` Christian Moe
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