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* LOGBOOK opening
@ 2012-01-11 16:04 François Pinard
  2012-01-11 17:59 ` Sebastien Vauban
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: François Pinard @ 2012-01-11 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Hi, Org people.

When using SPC in the Agenda buffer (org-agenda-show-and-scrollup), the
LOGBOOK drawer is shown opened, which is not a big problem, yet a
slightly annoying one, as I'm rarely interested to see its contents at
this stage.  Moreover, the manual explains that one of the purposes of
drawers is keeping information out of sight, unless the user takes
specific action for opening it.

The above command leave the cursor on the SCHEDULED: line in the Org
buffer, which is above and outside the LOGBOOK drawer, so there is
likely no need to open it.

Is there some secret variable to prevent such opening?  (I begin to see
the pattern on the Org mode list -- someone presents a problem, another
gives the name of the variable that solves it!)

François

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-11 16:04 LOGBOOK opening François Pinard
@ 2012-01-11 17:59 ` Sebastien Vauban
  2012-01-15 11:49   ` François Pinard
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Sebastien Vauban @ 2012-01-11 17:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode-mXXj517/zsQ

Hi François,

François Pinard wrote:
> When using SPC in the Agenda buffer (org-agenda-show-and-scrollup), the
> LOGBOOK drawer is shown opened, which is not a big problem, yet a
> slightly annoying one, as I'm rarely interested to see its contents at
> this stage.  Moreover, the manual explains that one of the purposes of
> drawers is keeping information out of sight, unless the user takes
> specific action for opening it.
>
> The above command leave the cursor on the SCHEDULED: line in the Org
> buffer, which is above and outside the LOGBOOK drawer, so there is
> likely no need to open it.
>
> Is there some secret variable to prevent such opening?  (I begin to see
> the pattern on the Org mode list -- someone presents a problem, another
> gives the name of the variable that solves it!)

I don't _think_ this is customizable right now; though, please not that
RET'ing on en entry from the agenda jumps to the entry, without expanding the
drawer. Though, it reuses the agenda buffer to do so -- it's not the same
behavior as SPC'ing.

Best regards,
  Seb

-- 
Sebastien Vauban

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-11 17:59 ` Sebastien Vauban
@ 2012-01-15 11:49   ` François Pinard
  2012-01-15 14:03     ` Bernt Hansen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: François Pinard @ 2012-01-15 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

"Sebastien Vauban"
<wxhgmqzgwmuf-geNee64TY+gS+FvcfC7Uqw@public.gmane.org> writes:

> François Pinard wrote:
>> When using SPC in the Agenda buffer (org-agenda-show-and-scrollup), the
>> LOGBOOK drawer is shown opened, which is not a big problem, yet a
>> slightly annoying one, as I'm rarely interested to see its contents at
>> this stage.

> I don't _think_ this is customizable right now; though, please not[e]
> that RET'ing on en entry from the agenda jumps to the entry, without
> expanding the drawer.  Though, it reuses the agenda buffer to do so --
> it's not the same behavior as SPC'ing.

Hello, Sebastien.  The manual says, in (org) Drawers:

  Sometimes you want to keep information associated with an entry, but
  you normally don't want to see it.  For this, Org mode has _drawers_.
  [...]  In order to look inside the drawer, you need to move the cursor
  to the drawer line and press <TAB> there.

and I like what the manual says, I would like it to be true.  The
/purpose/ of drawers is to keep the information out of sight, unless
explicit action is taken, as stated.  I do not see why RET and SPC from
the Agenda would act differently from one another in that respect, nor
why one of them would contradict the definition and spirit of a drawer.
If for some reason it should be an exception, this should be documented
and justified within (org) Agenda commands, which it is currently not.

François

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-15 11:49   ` François Pinard
@ 2012-01-15 14:03     ` Bernt Hansen
  2012-01-16  1:59       ` François Pinard
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Bernt Hansen @ 2012-01-15 14:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: François Pinard; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

pinard@iro.umontreal.ca (François Pinard) writes:

> Hello, Sebastien.  The manual says, in (org) Drawers:
>
>   Sometimes you want to keep information associated with an entry, but
>   you normally don't want to see it.  For this, Org mode has _drawers_.
>   [...]  In order to look inside the drawer, you need to move the cursor
>   to the drawer line and press <TAB> there.
>
> and I like what the manual says, I would like it to be true.  The
> /purpose/ of drawers is to keep the information out of sight, unless
> explicit action is taken, as stated.  I do not see why RET and SPC from
> the Agenda would act differently from one another in that respect, nor
> why one of them would contradict the definition and spirit of a drawer.
> If for some reason it should be an exception, this should be documented
> and justified within (org) Agenda commands, which it is currently not.
>
> François

Hi,

It behaves this way in the org file when you change folding views with
TAB.  From the agenda it's useful (at least for me) to be able to see
the first few lines of the drawer data for LOGBOOK entries.

When I mark a task WAITING I normally record the reason for WHY it is
waiting in the LOGBOOK as a note.  SPC in the agenda on the task
displays the extra detail and I like this current feature.

Regards,
Bernt

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-15 14:03     ` Bernt Hansen
@ 2012-01-16  1:59       ` François Pinard
  2012-01-24 16:04         ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: François Pinard @ 2012-01-16  1:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:

> pinard@iro.umontreal.ca (François Pinard) writes:

>> I do not see why RET and SPC from the Agenda would act differently
>> from one another in that respect [of opening the drawers in the
>> associate Org buffer], nor why one of them would contradict the
>> definition and spirit of a drawer.

> From the agenda it's useful (at least for me) to be able to see the
> first few lines of the drawer data for LOGBOOK entries.

Bernt, it seems that our usages vary.  In my case, so far, this has not
proven useful.  Even if I've not been using Org mode for long, those
LOGBOOK are already a bit lengthy.  When SPC-ing from the Agenda, I
either keep SPC-ing to scroll over these noisy lines, or switch to the
other window, position the cursor on the LOGBOOK line, close the drawer
for being able to see what follows it, and return to the agenda.  I
really, honestly thought there was some Org mode bug there.

If I put LOGBOOKs everywhere and moved administrative lines in them,
this is because I was promised by the manual that the drawers contents
will be kept out of my sight, unless I do request to see them.

If, as a user, you want to see log information right away, I presume you
should not use drawers for them.  Drawers should not be opened
automatically.  Some hooks or extra machinery might be used when one
/wants/ to open drawers automatically, but Org should not open drawers
by default, exactly because they are drawers.

There are special cases which I understand.  If Org wants to directly
show a CLOCK: line which is within a drawer, I find it very normal than
that line is revealed, and the drawer opened automatically to do so.
But then, the clear purpose is to show the CLOCK: line.  When the agenda
switches to the SCHEDULED: line, it should not open the drawer which
follows, this is contrary to the purpose of a drawer.

> When I mark a task WAITING I normally record the reason for WHY it is
> waiting in the LOGBOOK as a note.  SPC in the agenda on the task
> displays the extra detail and I like this current feature.

If it is indeed a feature, and not just a bug that happens to be
comfortable for you (and uncomfortable for me), maybe it should be
documented where drawers are presented, so users like me would know that
drawers have limitations or exceptions.

François

P.S. All this being said, this is a detail, which is not worth a crusade
:-).  Org mode is immensely usable.  I merely see that what seems a bug
to me is a feature for someone else.  If there is no bug in the program,
there is a bug in the documentation, which promised incorrectly.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-16  1:59       ` François Pinard
@ 2012-01-24 16:04         ` Bastien
  2012-01-24 18:23           ` François Pinard
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2012-01-24 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: François Pinard; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi François,

The default behavior of "SPC" in the agenda view stays the same, 
but you can now also use `C-u SPC' to avoid unfolding of logbooks 
and drawers.

HTH,

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-24 16:04         ` Bastien
@ 2012-01-24 18:23           ` François Pinard
  2012-01-24 23:24             ` Bernt Hansen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: François Pinard @ 2012-01-24 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> The default behavior of "SPC" in the agenda view stays the same, but
> you can now also use `C-u SPC' to avoid unfolding of logbooks and
> drawers.

That's good news!

> HTH,

Yes, it will indeed help!  I felt the need many times this morning, so
this correction is very welcome!  Thanks for it.

François

P.S. While I'm happy, I think that for the consistency and elegance of
Org mode, `C-u SPC' and `SPC' meanings should be reversed.  The manual
still defines drawers by this intent of keeping their contents hidden.

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-24 18:23           ` François Pinard
@ 2012-01-24 23:24             ` Bernt Hansen
  2012-01-25  6:13               ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Bernt Hansen @ 2012-01-24 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: François Pinard; +Cc: Bastien, emacs-orgmode

pinard@iro.umontreal.ca (François Pinard) writes:

> Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:
>
>> The default behavior of "SPC" in the agenda view stays the same, but
>> you can now also use `C-u SPC' to avoid unfolding of logbooks and
>> drawers.
>

<snip>

> P.S. While I'm happy, I think that for the consistency and elegance of
> Org mode, `C-u SPC' and `SPC' meanings should be reversed.  The manual
> still defines drawers by this intent of keeping their contents hidden.

If you're going to make this change then maybe provide a new variable so
the prefix behaviour can be selected.  SPC in the agenda (without a
prefix) is the only way I know of to quickly see the reason why a
WAITING task is waiting and having to hit the prefix each time I want to
look at one of those is going to make it less convenient (for me).

Just my 2 cents :)

Regards,
Bernt

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-24 23:24             ` Bernt Hansen
@ 2012-01-25  6:13               ` Bastien
  2012-01-25 11:49                 ` Bernt Hansen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2012-01-25  6:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bernt Hansen; +Cc: François Pinard, emacs-orgmode

Hi Bernt,

Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:

> If you're going to make this change then maybe provide a new variable so
> the prefix behaviour can be selected.  SPC in the agenda (without a
> prefix) is the only way I know of to quickly see the reason why a
> WAITING task is waiting and having to hit the prefix each time I want to
> look at one of those is going to make it less convenient (for me).

I'm reluctant to create a new variable just for this.
I documented the existence of C-u SPC in a footnote in
the manual, so people won't have wrong expectations.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

* Re: LOGBOOK opening
  2012-01-25  6:13               ` Bastien
@ 2012-01-25 11:49                 ` Bernt Hansen
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Bernt Hansen @ 2012-01-25 11:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Bastien; +Cc: François Pinard, emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> Hi Bernt,
>
> Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca> writes:
>
>> If you're going to make this change then maybe provide a new variable so
>> the prefix behaviour can be selected.  SPC in the agenda (without a
>> prefix) is the only way I know of to quickly see the reason why a
>> WAITING task is waiting and having to hit the prefix each time I want to
>> look at one of those is going to make it less convenient (for me).
>
> I'm reluctant to create a new variable just for this.
> I documented the existence of C-u SPC in a footnote in
> the manual, so people won't have wrong expectations.

Thanks.

-Bernt

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2012-01-25 11:50 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2012-01-11 16:04 LOGBOOK opening François Pinard
2012-01-11 17:59 ` Sebastien Vauban
2012-01-15 11:49   ` François Pinard
2012-01-15 14:03     ` Bernt Hansen
2012-01-16  1:59       ` François Pinard
2012-01-24 16:04         ` Bastien
2012-01-24 18:23           ` François Pinard
2012-01-24 23:24             ` Bernt Hansen
2012-01-25  6:13               ` Bastien
2012-01-25 11:49                 ` Bernt Hansen

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