From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
From: Bernt Hansen <bernt@norang.ca>
Subject: Re: [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates
 thru e.g. "<s[TAB]")
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 19:32:49 -0400
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In-Reply-To: <87k1sq6znz.fsf@bzg.fr> (Bastien's message of "Sun, 29 Apr 2018
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To: Bastien <bzg@gnu.org>, Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Rasmus <rasmus@gmx.us>

Bastien <bzg@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Nicolas,
>
> Nicolas Goaziou <mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr> writes:
>
>> You disagreed with me in the first place with commit 71ad7b1. It was my
>> original intent to not load Org Tempo by default.
>
> Sorry if I missed the statement where you explicitely said you thought
> org-tempo should not be enabled by default, I thought it was just an
> oversight and I didn't realize I was in a disagreement with you when I
> pushed this commit -- if I thought so, I'd write to you on the list to
> raise the topic instead of forcing a change through a commit.
>
> Again, I may be wrong in thinking disabling this will cause trouble to
> many users.  Let's just take a moment to see what users think.
>
> Thanks,

Hi Bastien, Nicolas, Rasmus, and list!

So here is my take on this.

org-tempo is the reason I am here on master right now and participating
in this conversation.

I am not really for or against enabling org-tempo by default.  If it's
not enabled by default and a clear path is documented for how to achieve
the same thing in ORG-NEWS using yasnippet or some other expansion
system then that is perfectly okay with me.  If I can't use <e and <s
anymore I'll just have to retrain my fingers which have been using this
for 10 years now -- it's doable it will just take me some time :) Right
now using yasnippet is what I would be setting up if org-tempo was not
enabled in my configuration.  I just need a refresher on how to write my
yasnippet templates since I haven't done that in years.

If I rewrite the few templates I use all the time in yasnippet then I
don't need this require for org-tempo in my configuration anymore
(Thanks for creating org-tempo Rasmus!).  I added it simply to restore
the <e and <s expansions in the master branch and I don't really know
what other capabilities it has.

I agree with Nicholas that if it just works users don't have to put any
thought or effort into learning anything new and thus they won't be
contributing feedback on the new functions as they won't be aware of
them or using them.

When I switched from 8.3 to the latest maint branch a few weeks back I
went through ORG-NEWS to deal with major errors I received on emacs
startup from my existing 8.3 config.  I admit I didn't read ORG-NEWS top
to bottom for every change between the versions.  I only addressed
obvious failures at startup to see if I could overcome them quickly and
easily since I wanted to get back to real work ASAP.

<s and <e still worked in maint (but that was probably after it was
enabled by default specifically in that branch).  Then when I switched
to the master branch at work to try things out the expansions didn't
work.  I use these all the time and simply switched back to maint
immediately so as not to adversely impact productivity at work.  It
never occurred to me to go look in ORG-NEWS to see if this had changed
-- I just assumed it was a bug -- until I caught up to the thread on the
mailing list.

I have no problem with switching to yasnippet or some other
templating/expansion system to achieve the same (or better) result as I
already enjoy in org-mode -- all I would need for that is clear
instructions on how to achieve it.  Writing yasnippet expansions will
work just fine for me, I just need to create the templates -- I am
already using yasnippet in my configuration.

I wasn't aware of the new expansion system that Nicholas is referring to
(and still don't know what it is or how/if I will be using it) -- I just
need some time to review and play with it.

Currently I prefer short key expansions without complicated keystrokes.
I'm using abbrev mode to insert people's names from their initials
quickly while taking meeting notes (like 'ibh' becomes 'Bernt Hansen')
and <s and <e fit in nicely with my easy typing replacement in my
workflows.  If I have to slow down with complicated keystrokes I can't
keep up with the details of meetings.  How exactly they expand and who
provides the functionality ultimately isn't important to me -- as long
as they work :)

Regards,
Bernt