From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:c151::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id 5aloG7t6VmBNZAAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:44:11 +0000 Received: from aspmx2.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:c151::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id gNCxFrt6VmBmOAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 22:44:11 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx2.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA483D0D7 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 23:44:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40396 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lNkKH-00085I-Qj for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:44:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44084) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lNkJU-00084E-S4 for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:43:21 -0400 Received: from mail-pf1-x432.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::432]:36485) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lNkJR-0001eR-UZ for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 18:43:20 -0400 Received: by mail-pf1-x432.google.com with SMTP id g15so8397364pfq.3 for ; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 15:43:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oy9F0vB274oVMmdjRLDHRwIz5z8wibRqnOMKigdxshA=; b=khyTpxdhq1Vh1wUc/eVyjGd+/Jrox7nCRc/Nv5IU6+LxlGWThTE9KlnKRi09mC1TAh oPn/n8imD0lenRYWCoDWMeUrWbF8OW0LsYXlOcbhXMzYyDvM2ApB4ZL+E54fT1BRaZzq xJFFD4J7aFUla9ZCpxtC1LsIVE/eEN8Q0pn8WUrQm0fykkQT1fZvd9AbFay7BDz1j48D sIiKanIfZhV2NNynkR4WC1u/viBfjghoePutYFet9J1dT61EOVzYh8KR25y7HHNKRtgj FqHwjFK+HkJx8mjpXlYc2Xbmpifvvha1H2rc8gbc5bDgVzpKPrzCRL7d9qrgUNfOl9Fn BQ6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:references:user-agent:from:to:cc:subject:date :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oy9F0vB274oVMmdjRLDHRwIz5z8wibRqnOMKigdxshA=; b=CAFjJkGu6/uz5mfnBpI07xP7Hj6X+EZHtuolegPYSBUA33ZGZq1iYLjM/HoQl5rP3q npWsJDudjTsvq+uMe/GNfyI7zOIr+/qmnLI5RW1J00vKsjaVn8JHvzuzKmqd6WakTs1U PbTyRvFahm3dMBqrTwrCDtacUjKLOnzWn3Yu9cqUO2ONjgU0I79+2oH3n5wyJHQgnSfJ z1zWNiTaH+XXGlLdtWI5puz+2gocXgy+x1U/jhZHmY0bDEhTaY6KzC4rx47oSgYk/TX4 OL+kMKNAxT4/XDqC40BAyEuShy1h5dpcZYlOEW5aP/HIeAhjnNmAYMREKSD9w8F2msOL miMA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ss2IDGPcRti7MfffVlT0MtAKbO+30MKQEef1PXtzAPEx7N/Vh rvsqkIjW0DQ3Xf+PIRCbgtLlHm8I17U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxrJg4YFgi9U8ZdL+Z9RFVvZjg29aFkanHzCJghB6aS5EzMdkeVq5ztsHLs3Txkp9eAkGFxtQ== X-Received: by 2002:a62:683:0:b029:1ec:c88c:8ea2 with SMTP id 125-20020a6206830000b02901ecc88c8ea2mr14794555pfg.27.1616280195275; Sat, 20 Mar 2021 15:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tim-desktop (220-235-31-11.dyn.iinet.net.au. [220.235.31.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g7sm8141662pgb.10.2021.03.20.15.43.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 20 Mar 2021 15:43:14 -0700 (PDT) References: <7a450ea3-b0e4-3322-04cd-fb5a5a555db8@gmx.com> <87o8fgwn9s.fsf@gmail.com> <9533dd41-ec81-43dd-8d25-a41300eb720c@gmx.com> <87czvw85ym.fsf@gmail.com> <87im5n9sjw.fsf@ucl.ac.uk> <878s6ij61x.fsf@eder.anydns.info> User-agent: mu4e 1.5.11; emacs 27.1.91 From: Tim Cross To: Andreas Eder Subject: Re: Syntax Proposal: Multi-line Table Cells/Text Wrapping Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2021 09:06:53 +1100 In-reply-to: <878s6ij61x.fsf@eder.anydns.info> Message-ID: <87tup58n0h.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::432; envelope-from=theophilusx@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x432.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1616280250; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=oy9F0vB274oVMmdjRLDHRwIz5z8wibRqnOMKigdxshA=; b=hzXuVXdMoTBmIf9VlQnQqwgwSIPfkjtLFR0TTm7zhflLbrE+n+wrZOW4HcZsJZ8EDS13yp fn12IZkUovJ+cFXcJqH4Qr9BZhvv5UPB3UgAfRL2vxUvQaGY3l7t+/1iggVKLJ9kZLvnkU vVmwTNQX23Jmku00OgozproIQeBI/FAkidx0yxX7zcftbgXGp8YFR3pfUoOyvyj32AIuRk +znVgbfqZ72fY2KomUsUuM/ah4KFUDNuBwioRBbJxGlP5pH3g289azqluFGkyEMtZbfVXQ cTCaTAjUhsAE53uPP2Fjf1H9mHuWL+2a7yT9RLm+Cbw7ZlZCpqAyJchoMqSSHQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1616280250; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VzDQAU9cl45N7qMldZlVSgSxjJTPiYTdg+ospiID/tibHabearFUQPAgAQ1PVf27wGcBMo zaHLKdWP/Wo5HA5uBgM1h9q4HA3NTOytiz+5Z7jJQ0aBkYqCkAztYb2T2ABgUD0nR+UGJ2 VBaEvsT/2do4V00UFNsV3GpjdMTXiY3jLB89NqtfdrPZyAGZ295syo89DduqIb6q0Bok6v sIVhNiupvs50uKR+qVzB5Y5kq/bpO/qL6qeajebhB05YXD1BGT55k7ExCjxesEZ+Yr5ZR7 +CdsRUpvMAPNdMmwRCQr7aLfsYhqF2/4xAO9r470nzIdDgjTlbSLHuqGahYl4w== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx2.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=khyTpxdh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx2.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.11 Authentication-Results: aspmx2.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=khyTpxdh; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx2.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BA483D0D7 X-Spam-Score: -3.11 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 1Gx3wkWSdoTz Andreas Eder writes: > On Fr 19 M=C3=A4r 2021 at 13:33, Eric S Fraga wrote: > >> With respect to the topic at hand, I believe it's the result of the same >> tendency that Excel users have of using spreadsheets (aka tables) for >> everything, something I hate when I'm given some Excel sheet that I need >> to modify and where entries are huge paragraphs. The UI in Excel is >> horrible for these types of tables. I would hate to see org go in the >> same direction. > > +1 for that > Unfortunately I have to deal with this type of people at work. > In my world, I suspect project managers would be liked a lot more if they had never discovered excel! Funny thing, survived for years without the scourge of excel, but noticed it creeping in more around 2007 or so, then by 2015 it was everywhere - project plans, requirement specifications, software testing and even software/API design documentation. I didn't mind when the core of the document was still about linked cells with calculated values which would change based on changes in various cell entries - that is what spreadsheets are for. However, often now, I'm presented with a spreadsheet (or workbook) with not a single calculation or cell formula - it is just about formatting. In many ways, workbooks are being treated like a poor persons slow inefficient database with a really poor interface. More than once, I've taken these spreadsheets and extracted the data into an org file with headings, sub-headings, TODOs and lists, possibly with a couple of clock tables and been far better off. In one project, we were really lucky because there was multiple Emacs users and we were able to get org used as the primary data format for managing the project (we even used taskjuggler to generate the diagrams needed for steering committee). Unfortunately, that is a very rare situation and most of the time, we are forced to use excel simply because it is a format available to everyone on every platform. This I think is the key problem - MS Office and excel in particular have become ubiquitous and now people think the way information is presented in spreadsheets is the 'default' or acceptable way to format data (i.e. tables with large columns cntaining paragraphs of data). IMO tables are really only a good presentation format when you can see the whole table in a page or screen. Once you need to navigate around large cells, columns, rows, it is really just about navigation around the data and I find is often less efficient or useful and navigation around a well structured org file. Where excel has us beat is in sharing of information and enabling others to add/update the data. Everyone has access to excel or excel compatible software, hardly anyone uses org (as a proportion of total users, doesn't mean org doesn't have a lot of users).= =20 --=20 Tim Cross