From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id uGqrDnzVpWEiZQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:40:44 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id gL9qCnzVpWGSTQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 07:40:44 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB5BA1A3EB for ; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:40:43 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:35984 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrxkp-0001qI-2Z for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:40:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34972) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrxjy-0001po-9K for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:39:50 -0500 Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([195.110.48.8]:58248) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mrxjw-0003T2-NN for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 02:39:50 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CB70E6DA8; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:39:47 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.mojserwer.eu Received: from mail.mojserwer.eu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.mojserwer.eu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WPhSdZCz13bf; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:39:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (178235147228.dynamic-3-poz-k-0-1-0.vectranet.pl [178.235.147.228]) by mail.mojserwer.eu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 63139E64B8; Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:39:40 +0100 (CET) References: <2021-11-28T20-44-37@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <875ysb7v1r.fsf@gmail.com> <2021-11-29T14-12-55@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <87tufuu8ah.fsf@atlantis> User-agent: mu4e 1.1.0; emacs 28.0.50 From: Marcin Borkowski To: =?utf-8?Q?M=2E_=E2=80=98quintus=E2=80=99_G=C3=BClker?= Subject: Re: "Orgdown", the new name for the syntax of Org-mode In-reply-to: <87tufuu8ah.fsf@atlantis> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 08:39:40 +0100 Message-ID: <87tufuozwj.fsf@mbork.pl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=195.110.48.8; envelope-from=mbork@mbork.pl; helo=mail.mojserwer.eu X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638258043; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=qYPTid5KtS7ONe4hWnTuejY3SDOxHQm17DU2Ew+gQyQ=; b=UyjNdn80mE/dR3bR+B5Fu+JmOQy03MWndGoENTNJvybz4ADFAMVOHGLMUdZVNmaq9wBA44 UhqtQYoDM9PJt6ihIWE10DB6C8QCXm9ecTtHu1+xlLTjm2Ex60iOZ+AauoHTvlQPlHE27x 7bjJtYar4DnItAWHI90zSLZ03JWV4tK2CPqqSMebB7IJ4RCKUjQeXYUTsgF978463BLe42 pt0oxA7/QsRFyi858eQQQT2uRKvUZBwGbrB7Xv5aknp02Q1t4Lmk/ADCe52RGfabfZvz8g 5V8nbKjCS6HghOkEVYZQfz+fL5cD+M6Bxmg0jafTdqxQy6RwrT3Xz/0inQc51w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638258043; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=fHjD0mZSydGiERnUWjV/qRZnHyxg3RqjZlKLCJzggNefrKm7Kku9Ra4scQ9E+0TiChwEjC uCYHH21YVt7qL2OacWbyp9htb5uNuDZG7I5ttO8IBvBrf4hMKUX7upD0V4/hTUO6RkWa6h fk5YxuyrvyNSt7WSC5WqGQREZimTVA41NWtjkH5fVml06bUAoKgiWBrdATUIvTxml+kOU/ +EqN4ixUOB9W9TdlVdzcsxOo81yP58wFLCL7k+z6qQXGuj2iTmTSm/j145lrT52/1Wy4Ls is6mZm0d7941ibSOXRBYTlYSPc//P93W0dp3i5okY6wkcA0yEerfOLrvozqbdg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.01 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DB5BA1A3EB X-Spam-Score: -3.01 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: ZQW4L6fScs5+ On 2021-11-29, at 19:27, M. =E2=80=98quintus=E2=80=99 G=C3=BClker wrote: > Am Montag, dem 29. November 2021 schrieb Karl Voit: >> It seems to be the case that the name "Orgdown" is the reason why >> the Org-mode community does not support the idea of an >> implementation-agnostic definition of the syntax. Which is ... kinda >> funny if you think about it. >> >> Well if the project is not working out, at least I made my point and >> we continue to have all those misunderstandings and lack of Orgdown >> support in 3rd party tools (because Org-mode is way too big). > > I think the project has value; better tooling outside of Emacs is > something org can only profit from in my opinion. One point that has not > been raised yet are scenarios of collaborative work; I would enjoy it > quite a bit if I could work on documents together with people who do not > like Emacs as an editor for whatever reason. Currently, org as a file > format is pretty much excluded if collaboration is intended with someone > who does not use Emacs. The natural choice in these cases is Markdown. This! >> Oh, there is a very large danger here of getting something that is >> not compatible with Org-mode any more. I don't think that this would >> be a good thing. At least the different flavors killed the fun of >> Markdown for me. > > The astonishing thing is that most people manage to get along despite of > the incompatibilities of the different Markdown flavours. Otherwise > Markdown would not be such a success. Why is this? What can be learned > from this for creating org tools outside of Emacs? Actually surveying > this might be of interest. > > Maybe most documents are very simple files. README files for FLOSS > projects, forum posts, blog posts. For such content the features where > the Markdown implementations differ are usually not required. It > suffices to use unstyled text, headings, code blocks, quotes, emphasis. > That is it basically. org shines on documents where more is required -- > documentation, books, since recently scientific articles. Markdown=E2=80= =99s > common subset is not expressive enough for these documents, whereas for > simple documents there is not much benefit in trading in Markdown for > org. Thus, maybe it is more fruitful to try to market org(down) as a > markup for complex documents, with the added benefit that it does > incidentally also cover simple documents nicely on par with Markdown. I agree. When I type Markdown (and I often do, in a few places), I mainly use `backticks` (single and triple ones) for code etc., _italics_, - sometimes - bulleted - lists, > quotations (not very often), and a # Heading on rare occasions. That's pretty much it. Best, --=20 Marcin Borkowski http://mbork.pl