From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6OhGKUvhk2CpWwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 14:30:03 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id eO/cJEvhk2DaHAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 06 May 2021 12:30:03 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 818B722D9D for ; Thu, 6 May 2021 14:30:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40926 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1led8j-000764-09 for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 08:30:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37678) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1led8K-000757-Jz for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 08:29:36 -0400 Received: from relay1-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.193]:29397) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1led8I-0007d4-3D for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Thu, 06 May 2021 08:29:36 -0400 X-Originating-IP: 185.131.40.67 Received: from localhost (40-67.ipv4.commingeshautdebit.fr [185.131.40.67]) (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by relay1-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BD735240006; Thu, 6 May 2021 12:29:29 +0000 (UTC) From: Nicolas Goaziou To: "Bruce D'Arcus" Subject: Re: [wip-cite-new] New natbib processor References: <87eeel44gt.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Mail-Followup-To: "Bruce D'Arcus" , Org Mode List Date: Thu, 06 May 2021 14:29:28 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Bruce D'Arcus's message of "Wed, 5 May 2021 11:20:31 -0400") Message-ID: <87sg302ggn.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.183.193; envelope-from=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr; helo=relay1-d.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Org Mode List Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1620304202; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=R08ZZrRJE4td0qVDkOoVNwUiYWUDQ3AgGfGZW74FP3o=; b=fqy1FtR/K92tZKSEbgYIKoMWVJJ9HS1gsvqgoKZy5JoxAWerWnGAVp9uuYA8KbLGWcniCu g78NE9KOVzBDPp6javDxZHy/dHTlv6bm/ZAomASPnc1wYyLBCXN+dxRGtnAfIzsEJnARF8 6OgXhFvzp5ap4m01/A1VJa2Lt/lFDM8CGSzKo1jPiduUOMaomeemShd50V0iAzM5REpgEI oKfKeZMoN0IWgosekOtTSQi59s6dCYQ9k9CKk4Tyosw03prhHOjkGFHjgZ0lnlDNEhO5Uc pQ210f8HKLL+QPuPpW3RXhee/D3KIBZyUJT7hC8aLnn2VySDkPX68doG6/ggbQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1620304202; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=U7KGBieoqig0IdCC0xcJWWZQyU1TkOWiphkNfaRVy+JeLP7jm7iu6PLfc4Pg394zKO24z4 Pg/7ABnXgKwa4wCIBnlYS4/ggG7tqbm1O933lamYsP35hFe0ra4VBXQhriawVwxLNPGTZJ cw1+M9qVnaQZqNsLS8TBp4h1w665zHDrjbYf4gLlSvl5epRFY46Cm/nUBYSbpCIC17Pugq UHZnuyqO5gz3SvxkzEs1/XqdGbRq1iW1pmBVsZAzudq+hzYlitUE89UuLQ69gbSUQeqbbh KYuzdiG6ektpdcmGfPVoB+wIFj3Il+2xRvsYpHb9IbMQKl3TflswOcQSvllGVw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.96 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 818B722D9D X-Spam-Score: -0.96 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: g4GK7gP6w8Qi Hello, "Bruce D'Arcus" writes: > The question comes down to whether to support sub-styles or not, and > if yes, what the syntax should be. > > I think it makes more sense to include them because otherwise you end > up with an insanely long list of styles, which won't map well onto > different kinds of output formats. I think only oc-citeproc (and oc-basic) may be targetting multiple output formats. I doubt it would even use styles; I assume that is entirely determined by the CSL file. > E.g. biblatex users will want like 20 commands available, which won't > all work with other formats. So you would have 20 styles, with shortcuts for the most commons. This is not insane, and the mapping is done only once. Styles do not need to be compatible between processors. As a reminder, there's the "fallback rule". According to it, each processor must: - provide a default styles; - map any unknown style to the style above. Thanks to this, there will not be any incompatibility between documents upon switching processors. Agreeing on a small set of common styles is a good thing; this is what your doing on your wiki. But there is nothing wrong to map "text-alt-full" style to the default one in another processor. Of course, the default style may be unrelated to "text", but is it a problem in practice? If you switch processor and use complex styles (here style + sub-styles), you will need to change them anyway, because the compatibility is so low. > Also consider that for processors, they're going to have to map those > internally to something like styles+sub-styles anyway. Exactly. For developers, it doesn't make a huge difference here. > Even if not perfect, I think it's a small price to pay for the > benefits. I'm still not convinced by the benefits. Could you describe a situation where sub-styles would be really beneficial? Regards, -- Nicolas Goaziou