If I remember well, Org decided to suggest with lowercase keywords (and use uppercase keywords in the manual, for some reason). Then, we should change "org-babel-results-keyword" from "RESULTS" to "results". (1) Example #1 #+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap example […] #+end_src #+RESULT: [<--- inconsistent] #+begin_example […] #+end_example (2) Example #2 #+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap EXAMPLE […] #+end_src #+RESULT: #+begin_EXAMPLE [<---- still inconsistent] […] #+end_EXAMPLE P.S. Org should not leak potentially sensitive information, such as "/Users/salutis/", in the subject of its bug reports. 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'(org-babel-pop-to-session-maybe) org-link-parameters '(("attachment" :follow org-attach-follow :complete org-attach-complete-link) ("id" :follow org-id-open) ("notmuch" :store org-notmuch-store-link :follow notmuch-show) ("eww" :follow org-eww-open :store org-eww-store-link) ("rmail" :follow org-rmail-open :store org-rmail-store-link) ("mhe" :follow org-mhe-open :store org-mhe-store-link) ("irc" :follow org-irc-visit :store org-irc-store-link :export org-irc-export) ("info" :follow org-info-open :export org-info-export :store org-info-store-link) ("gnus" :follow org-gnus-open :store org-gnus-store-link) ("docview" :follow org-docview-open :export org-docview-export :store org-docview-store-link) ("bibtex" :follow org-bibtex-open :store org-bibtex-store-link) ("bbdb" :follow org-bbdb-open :export org-bbdb-export :complete org-bbdb-complete-link :store org-bbdb-store-link) ("w3m" :store org-w3m-store-link) ("doi" :follow org-link-doi-open :export org-link-doi-export) ("elfeed" :follow elfeed-link-open :store elfeed-link-store-link) ("file+sys") ("file+emacs") ("shell" :follow org-link--open-shell) ("news" :follow #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["news" browse-url ":"] 6 "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"] ) ("mailto" :follow #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["mailto" browse-url ":"] 6 "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"] ) ("https" :follow #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["https" browse-url ":"] 6 "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"] ) ("http" :follow #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["http" browse-url ":"] 6 "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"] ) ("ftp" :follow #[514 "\301\300\302.Q.\"\207" ["ftp" browse-url ":"] 6 "\n\n(fn URL ARG)"] ) ("help" :follow org-link--open-help :store org-link--store-help) ("file" :complete org-link-complete-file) ("elisp" :follow org-link--open-elisp)) org-html-format-headline-function 'org-html-format-headline-default-function org-metaup-hook '(org-babel-load-in-session-maybe) org-refile-allow-creating-parent-nodes 'confirm org-startup-with-inline-images t org-pomodoro-length 50 org-imenu-depth 999 org-link-frame-setup '((file . find-file)) org-return-follows-link t org-outline-path-complete-in-steps nil org-pomodoro-start-sound "/Users/salutis/.emacs.d/elpa/org-pomodoro-20190530.1445/resources/bell.wav" org-pomodoro-killed-hook '(my/org-clock-mode-line-enable) org-agenda-block-separator nil org-agenda-deadline-leaders '("Deadline: " "Deadline in %3d DAYS: " "Deadline %2d days ago: ") ) -- "I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by." -- Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him] Studenohorská 25 84103 Bratislava Slovakia
>>>>> Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:
> If I remember well, Org decided to suggest with lowercase keywords
> (and use uppercase keywords in the manual, for some reason).
> Then, we should change "org-babel-results-keyword" from "RESULTS"
> to "results".
Change it for yourself. Please don't change the default.
Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes: > Change it for yourself. I did. > Please don't change the default. Why? -- "'Contrariwise,' continued Tweedledee, 'if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.'" -- Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him] Studenohorská 25 84103 Bratislava Slovakia
Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:
> If I remember well, Org decided to suggest with lowercase keywords (and
> use uppercase keywords in the manual, for some reason). Then, we should
> change "org-babel-results-keyword" from "RESULTS" to "results".
>
> (1) Example #1
>
> #+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap example
> […]
> #+end_src
>
> #+RESULT: [<--- inconsistent]
> #+begin_example
>
> […]
> #+end_example
>
> (2) Example #2
>
> #+begin_src R :results verbatim :wrap EXAMPLE
> […]
> #+end_src
>
>
> #+RESULT:
>
> #+begin_EXAMPLE [<---- still inconsistent]
> […]
> #+end_EXAMPLE
>
> P.S. Org should not leak potentially sensitive information, such as
> "/Users/salutis/", in the subject of its bug reports.
>
> Rudy
>
This is probably a can of worms not worth opening!
From a technical perspective, case does not matter. Originally, the
'styhle' was to use upper case letters for things like #+BEGIN et. al.
(which is probably why they are in upper case in the manual).
Then (I think it was with the change to the code to insert block
markers) there was a change to use #+begin_*. However, I think for those
who reverted to the old block insertion method (now based on tempo), you
still get things in upper case.
The point is, the begin v BEGIN issue is to some extent bordering on
becoming a religious argument and one which is unlikely to gain
consensus. While personally I agree with your point and for consistency,
I think the default should be lower case, it really doesn't matter.
Everyone will have their personal preferences and while it is trivial to
set to your preferred format, it is one of those issues which will
likely generate lots of noise with little resolution.
Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
> The point is, the begin v BEGIN issue is to some extent bordering on
> becoming a religious argument and one which is unlikely to gain
> consensus. While personally I agree with your point and for
> consistency, I think the default should be lower case, it really
> doesn't matter. Everyone will have their personal preferences and
> while it is trivial to set to your preferred format, it is one of
> those issues which will likely generate lots of noise with little
> resolution.
Thank you for providing me with such a clear explanation! To make my
point clear, I do not care about whether Org uses upper case or lower
case keywords, but I do care about consistency. Specifically, I think
Emacs should not make new users fiddle with variables just to make its
behavior internally consistent. Thus, while I do understand both the
"lowercase religion" and the "uppercase religion", I do not understand
the "inconsistency religion".
Rudy
--
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go by."
-- Douglas Adams, The Salmon of Doubt
Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia
On 2022-01-09 06:21 PM, Rudolf Adamkovič wrote:
> Thank you for providing me with such a clear explanation! To make my
> point clear, I do not care about whether Org uses upper case or lower
> case keywords, but I do care about consistency. Specifically, I think
> Emacs should not make new users fiddle with variables just to make its
> behavior internally consistent. Thus, while I do understand both the
> "lowercase religion" and the "uppercase religion", I do not understand
> the "inconsistency religion".
>
> Rudy
Consider Emerson's quote:
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by
little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great
soul has simply nothing to do."
;-)
-gyro
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 828 bytes --] Hi Gyro, > Consider Emerson’s quote: > > “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little > statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply > nothing to do.” I think applying a quote about how societal expectations and norms can limit the capacity for greatness of individuals, to … capitalisation is a bit of a stretch. FWIW, I think it would be good to be internally consistent. #+RESULTS is currently one of the few keywords inserted in upper case. Unless there’s a good reason to distinguish it from other keywords (perhaps an argument could be made that it should be treated differently because it is usually generated, not inserted by the user?), I’d be in favour of changing the default to be consistent. All the best, Timothy
On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 8:35 AM Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> FWIW, I think it would be good to be internally consistent. #+RESULTS is
> currently one of the few keywords inserted in upper case. Unless there’s a good
> reason to distinguish it from other keywords (perhaps an argument could be made
> that it should be treated differently because it is usually generated, not
> inserted by the user?), I’d be in favour of changing the default to be
> consistent.
+1 for consistency. The Org parser does not care if the keywords are
upper or lower case.
So inserting the #+results keyword in lower-case would be a good
change towards improving the consistency.
>>>>> Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi Gyro,
>> Consider Emerson’s quote:
>>
>> “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored
>> by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With
>> consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do.”
> I think applying a quote about how societal expectations and norms
> can limit the capacity for greatness of individuals, to …
> capitalisation is a bit of a stretch.
> FWIW, I think it would be good to be internally
> consistent. #+RESULTS is currently one of the few keywords
> inserted in upper case. Unless there’s a good reason to
> distinguish it from other keywords (perhaps an argument could be
> made that it should be treated differently because it is usually
> generated, not inserted by the user?), I’d be in favour of
> changing the default to be consistent.
What is the point of changing a default? Users can change to whatever
they like, but a default is a default - i.e. remains fixed. Why a
particular default arose belongs to peculiarities of history. Do people
really want to revisit this year after year? The value of a
default is irrelevant: what is important is that it does not change,
once it is chosen, without some very good reason. I have not seen that
reason in this particular case. The arguments of consistency are
ephemeral.
Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:
> What is the point of changing a default? Users can change to whatever
> they like, but a default is a default - i.e. remains fixed. Why a
> particular default arose belongs to peculiarities of history. Do people
> really want to revisit this year after year? The value of a
> default is irrelevant: what is important is that it does not change,
> once it is chosen, without some very good reason. I have not seen that
> reason in this particular case. The arguments of consistency are
> ephemeral.
For some more context, other functions are not really consistent about uppercase/lowercase:
- =org-insert-structure-template= lowercase
- =org-insert-drawer= uppercase
- =org-insert-property-drawer= uppercase
- =org-babel-exp-code-template= defaults to uppercase
- =org-clock-find-position= defaults to uppercase :END:
- =org-feed-write-status= defaults to uppercase
- =org-inlinetask-insert-task= defaults to uppercase
- =org-mobile-write-agenda-for-mobile= defaults to uppercase
- =org-babel-examplify-region= lowercase
I just looked for END vs end.
So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined towards
preserving the existing behaviour.
Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things
consistent.
Best,
Ihor
>>>>> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
> Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:
>> What is the point of changing a default? Users can change to
>> whatever they like, but a default is a default - i.e. remains
>> fixed. Why a particular default arose belongs to peculiarities of
>> history. Do people really want to revisit this year after year?
>> The value of a default is irrelevant: what is important is that
>> it does not change, once it is chosen, without some very good
>> reason. I have not seen that reason in this particular case. The
>> arguments of consistency are ephemeral.
> For some more context, other functions are not really consistent
> about uppercase/lowercase: - =org-insert-structure-template=
> lowercase - =org-insert-drawer= uppercase -
> =org-insert-property-drawer= uppercase -
> =org-babel-exp-code-template= defaults to uppercase -
> =org-clock-find-position= defaults to uppercase :END: -
> =org-feed-write-status= defaults to uppercase -
> =org-inlinetask-insert-task= defaults to uppercase -
> =org-mobile-write-agenda-for-mobile= defaults to uppercase -
> =org-babel-examplify-region= lowercase
> I just looked for END vs end.
> So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
> defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined
> towards preserving the existing behaviour.
Agreed.
> Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things
> consistent.
Agreed.
Best - Colin
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1194 bytes --] Hi Ihor, > For some more context, other functions are not really consistent about uppercase/lowercase: > - `org-insert-structure-template' lowercase > - `org-insert-drawer' uppercase > - `org-insert-property-drawer' uppercase > - `org-babel-exp-code-template' defaults to uppercase > - `org-clock-find-position' defaults to uppercase :END: > - `org-feed-write-status' defaults to uppercase > - `org-inlinetask-insert-task' defaults to uppercase > - `org-mobile-write-agenda-for-mobile' defaults to uppercase > - `org-babel-examplify-region' lowercase Ok, I thought we were much closer to consistency than we seem to be. In that case, I don’t see much point in /just/ changing #+results. > So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase > defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined towards > preserving the existing behaviour. I do think it would be nice if we went one way or the other (and from previous discussion, lower case looks like the direction we’d go in), but it would have to be across the board. > Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things > consistent. Yep. All the best, Timothy
Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes: > So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase > defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined towards > preserving the existing behaviour. The results so far: - For inconsistent defaults: Colin - For consistent defaults: Rudy (me), Tim, Timothy, Kaushal - Unknown: Gyro Four times more people would like to see consistent defaults so far. Does that count as overwhelming support? :) > Changing just RESULTS keyword provides no benefit to making things > consistent. Agreed, like everyone else. Rudy -- "Programming reliably --- must be an activity of an undeniably mathematical nature […] You see, mathematics is about thinking, and doing mathematics is always trying to think as well as possible." -- Edsger W. Dijkstra (1981) Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him] Studenohorská 25 84103 Bratislava Slovakia
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 582 bytes --] On 11 January 2022, Rudolf Adamkovič wrote: > Four times more people would like to see consistent defaults so far. > Does that count as overwhelming support? :) I'm for consistent defaults too, and #+RESULTS looks wrong to me, but I suspect I'm one of many who isn't able to provide patches, doesn't really mind it enough to be terrifically bothered, is happy to live with it, and wouldn't mind if attention was directed to bigger issues. Bill -- William Denton https://www.miskatonic.org/ Librarian, artist and licensed private investigator. Toronto, Canada
>>>>> Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:
> Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes:
>> So, unless there is overwhelming support for changing uppercase
>> defaults into lowercase and a thorough patch, I am inclined
>> towards preserving the existing behaviour.
> The results so far:
> - For inconsistent defaults: Colin
I did not write that. I wrote that I am for a default remaining a
default. Whether it is "consistent" or "inconsistent" is not
important. Once chosen it should stay fixed.
Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> writes:
> The results so far:
>
> - For inconsistent defaults:
> Colin
>
> - For consistent defaults:
> Rudy (me), Tim, Timothy, Kaushal
>
> - Unknown:
> Gyro
>
> Four times more people would like to see consistent defaults so far.
> Does that count as overwhelming support? :)
Bastien would count as overwhelming support :) Though seriously - I am
generally in favour of being consistent, but not to the point that I
prioritise it over fixing bugs and implementing new features. If someone
is bothered enough to spend time scanning all the instances of using
uppercase/lowercase keywords in Org sources, I can prepare a patch based
on that information.
Best,
Ihor
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 422 bytes --] I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of work to adopt files and might get wrong. It's very important. -- [ stardiviner ] I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express. Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/ IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3 [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 627 bytes --] Hi Christopher, > I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of > work to adopt files and might get wrong. It’s very important. Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/ keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner. Is there a good reason for this? At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and only use `org-babel-results-keyword' when inserting, or remove it all together. All the best, Timothy
Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes:
> Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are
> indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/
> keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner.
>
> Is there a good reason for this?
Could you elaborate on this? It should not be case-sensitive, AFAIK.
Best,
Ihor
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1351 bytes --] Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Christopher, > >> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of >> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It’s very important. > > Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are > indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/ > keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner. > > Is there a good reason for this? > > At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and > only use `org-babel-results-keyword' when inserting, or remove it all together. > > All the best, > Timothy Me too, I hope it can be case-insensitive, if org-mode internal has already case-sensitive processing. I suggest to keep one standard. I remember used to blocks like ~#+BEGIN_SRC~ etc are uppercase by default. Latter changed into lowercase. Then I did a lot of work to replace them. If we need to use lowercase, I suggest to use them all. It might improve regexp matching speed? Don't know...... -- [ stardiviner ] I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express. Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/ IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3 [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 829 bytes --] Hi Ihor, >> Hmm. Upon inspection I see that some uses of `org-babel-results-keyword’ are >> indeed case-sensitive. This comes as a surprise to me, as I thought that /all/ >> keywords were parsed in a case-insensitive manner. >> >> Is there a good reason for this? > > Could you elaborate on this? It should not be case-sensitive, AFAIK. I had a quick glance earlier. Having another look, I misread the code (I thought I saw `(case-fold-search nil)' but it’s actually `(case-fold-search t)'). So, the two uses of `org-babel-results-keyword' are `org-babel-find-named-result' and `org-babel--insert-results-keyword'. `org-babel--insert-results-keyword' just inserts `org-babel-results-keyword' verbatim. `org-babel-find-named-result' searches for it with `(case-fold-search t)'. All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1057 bytes --] Hi Christopher, >> Is there a good reason for this? >> >> At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and >> only use `org-babel-results-keyword’ when inserting, or remove it all together. > > Me too, I hope it can be case-insensitive, if org-mode internal has already case-sensitive > processing. I suggest to keep one standard. I remember used to blocks like `#+BEGIN_SRC' etc are > uppercase by default. Latter changed into lowercase. Then I did a lot of work to replace them. If we > need to use lowercase, I suggest to use them all. It might improve regexp matching speed? Don’t know…… See my reply to Ihor, I actually misread the code. It *is* case insensitive (as it should be). So, changing the default capitalisation of `org-babel-results-keyword' would have no effect on the interpretation or function of existing documents. Based on your comments on converting block case, maybe it would be worth providing a function to normalise the case in an Org document? All the best, Timothy
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2365 bytes --] Timothy <tecosaur@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Christopher, > >>> Is there a good reason for this? >>> >>> At a glance, I’d personally be tempted to make the use case insensitive, and >>> only use `org-babel-results-keyword’ when inserting, or remove it all together. >> >> Me too, I hope it can be case-insensitive, if org-mode internal has already case-sensitive >> processing. I suggest to keep one standard. I remember used to blocks like `#+BEGIN_SRC' etc are >> uppercase by default. Latter changed into lowercase. Then I did a lot of work to replace them. If we >> need to use lowercase, I suggest to use them all. It might improve regexp matching speed? Don’t know…… > > See my reply to Ihor, I actually misread the code. It *is* case insensitive (as it > should be). So, changing the default capitalisation of `org-babel-results-keyword' > would have no effect on the interpretation or function of existing documents. > > Based on your comments on converting block case, maybe it would be worth > providing a function to normalise the case in an Org document? > > All the best, > Timothy Indeed, there is a similar purpose function: #+begin_src emacs-lisp (defun modi/lower-case-org-keywords () "Lower case Org keywords and block identifiers. Example: \"#+TITLE\" -> \"#+title\" \"#+BEGIN_EXAMPLE\" -> \"#+begin_example\" Inspiration: https://code.orgmode.org/bzg/org-mode/commit/13424336a6f30c50952d291e7a82906c1210daf0." (interactive) (save-excursion (goto-char (point-min)) (let ((case-fold-search nil) (count 0)) ;; Match examples: "#+FOO bar", "#+FOO:", "=#+FOO=", "~#+FOO~", ;; "‘#+FOO’", "“#+FOO”", ",#+FOO bar", ;; "#+FOO_bar<eol>", "#+FOO<eol>". (while (re-search-forward "\\(?1:#\\+[A-Z_]+\\(?:_[[:alpha:]]+\\)*\\)\\(?:[ :=~’”]\\|$\\)" nil :noerror) (setq count (1+ count)) (replace-match (downcase (match-string-no-properties 1)) :fixedcase nil nil 1)) (message "Lower-cased %d matches" count)))) #+end_src -- [ stardiviner ] I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express. Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/ IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3 [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]
> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of
> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It's very important.
Org mode does not distinguish the _meaning_ of all keywords regardless
of their case. Including src blocks and results. If it is not the case,
it should be a bug (and please report it then). So, you should have no
need to change keyword case in your existing documents except for your
visual satisfaction.
What we are discussing here is the visual appearance of how the keywords
are inserted by default. Nothing functional.
Best,
Ihor
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 990 bytes --] Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@gmail.com> writes: >> I suggest to keep current defaults. Because I have lot of Org files, if changed, I have to do lot of >> work to adopt files and might get wrong. It's very important. > > Org mode does not distinguish the _meaning_ of all keywords regardless > of their case. Including src blocks and results. If it is not the case, > it should be a bug (and please report it then). So, you should have no > need to change keyword case in your existing documents except for your > visual satisfaction. > > What we are discussing here is the visual appearance of how the keywords > are inserted by default. Nothing functional. > > Best, > Ihor That's the best, thanks for explanation. -- [ stardiviner ] I try to make every word tell the meaning that I want to express. Blog: https://stardiviner.github.io/ IRC(freenode): stardiviner, Matrix: stardiviner GPG: F09F650D7D674819892591401B5DF1C95AE89AC3 [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 488 bytes --]