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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638714663; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=3QvCJWOTR9ArOJxCga3/hnxbWdOOJeqSB5MDBLRJ5r8=; b=KFWMmDY6PxZEqn+zIrfgLVSGUVfyxWjLblqljGHCOhAoyu5KBdwXoe4lCK/tKQijugtLt6 fPz2X/tQ/L3T8cCG5kWwBi1w/8JUjo2ImexTfk0uPXVb80iAZRMyikQZyqJQHKksS8Q3mG aR5OV3W/Ocd3W9PFym0xzO7vnCsDF97JlBWWzgynUbVF5zTHYHQSrCiRerodyBY9SCY2nG gmI4GUpx17o7iiVpEtAJagyhdwgk1UMpePz58+OegLY97R7CLdoAPNLgRNdBIhoFQAy0Nv mWFyGYy81c6tOpeIVcgOI2MKTJAsBMGE3I2n2tpMF8pwTO5pxX/pibwbhl8liw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638714663; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=TVZ2uFzUJI5T+cfG1U4Qa/nnvkql9xrWpGVOM0VNu8fCgbizBN0Ni58WOXXpbiWuznPqxJ 1MR7/V9tTLqtLDrvgjvWxbfSlUs0yaIK6W4oTr8mx26mddaOI/rgGL2FPzQUMay9BMKFkr KZYFoJp2TvOs8vH24QQbFjM8uQQc/svAB5heNZAm2WXBmZJgG+GZXajqRZtvzRWRo3eQeq p0se+NkTV8cLNqPEDCkrIbPI0bipEjln+S33VNOuwb8Yu0PIiy73Mtph8nrb8o+RwgxQU6 +hWVpq02NQf57Eo3UhqqKuwB5lMZvDCeVoMjpMaGifwPEwvtT5y0LbrjW0kokw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Vz48NWUq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.64 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=Vz48NWUq; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 8A9B02A397 X-Spam-Score: -3.64 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: SdmTLxAqJrAH Tim Cross writes: > I think your working off a false premise. Your view is that org mode > should be available in other editors/software so that others can realise > the power and benefits it provides. I can understand that position. A clarification: my premise is that org mode should be available in other _free_ editors/software. If we provide the means for other free software to support Org mode (either as markup format or as some subset of Elist implementation), it will benefit software freedom in general. Whatever helper information (think of tests) we provide, it should be licensed under GPLv3 with the following effect: https://www.gnu.org/licenses/quick-guide-gplv3.html >> It's always possible to use GPLed code to write software that >> implements DRM. However, if someone does that with code protected by >> GPLv3, section 3 says that the system will not count as an effective >> technological "protection" measure. This means that if you break the >> DRM, you'll be free to distribute your own software that does that, >> and you won't be threatened by the DMCA or similar laws. The fact is that e.g. Github already provides support for Org markup. They do it for their own profit and we cannot stop them. If we have a controlled criteria about quality of third-party Org mode support, there will be means to interfere with non-free software attempting to makes profits out of Org mode. For example, if Github do not integrate our recommended test suite (with all the legal consequences defined in GPLv3), we will be able to have a list of third-party tools and, among free alternatives, mention that Github support for Org is not verified and most likely not consistent with other _free_ tools. We cannot do it now. > However, the FSF position would be exactly the opposite. They would > argue that orgmode is a powerful and flexible tool that is part of Emacs > and if you want that power and flexibility, you need to use Emacs. Org > mode has probably done more to bring new users to Emacs than any other > Emacs mode in the last 30 years. As a consequence, you will find not > only little support towards making it available in other editors, you > are likely to run into active resistance. As you say, org-mode can be > thought of as a brand name and that is a brand name owned by the FSF as > an official GNU project and a goal of the FSF is to convert people to > use GNU free software. Anything which has the potential to take the > power of org mode and make it available in non-free software (not simply > open source) is not going to be supported or welcomed. I am very much sceptical that third-party tools can provide the level of Org support Emacs does provide. Emacs is and will remain the most feature-full tool for people to use Org mode. Org mode's largest power is configurability thanks to Emacs. On the other hand, Org mode's support would be welcome in tools like TeXMacs or in forges like Sourcehut (currently only supporting markdown). Best, ihor