From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id BCguMyoFxGO98AAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 14:52:42 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id eLR9MioFxGNG9QAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 14:52:42 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95399F960 for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 14:52:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pH3Qg-00043W-RG; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 08:52:10 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pH3QY-00043E-6U for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 08:52:02 -0500 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pH3QJ-0004CG-Qa for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 08:52:01 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E077124017E for ; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 14:51:44 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1673790704; bh=I+bF8mVZO1y1YsaSQQ1cls/5wrKnemITPmeTbHJtFJ4=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=Je4FPL/kLksM9bXHCJufhro5Ucxh7M2BekKZw341SP/wjySL2JwDgfVLlrZXesFSe PGIq2sen+zS1/buNKL9iAbVaXbvjlLIPtDTLPb92jg+w//I6pkv5mxFyl7boBW43oH tU9za4VZfHmK85lu0uhvKurn9ZraMWKMXUA0PlWbngZYMSEPgNcZ4EgjYsOsfABVOl DD9aFua5xCR9EtXt21pyiRMFeV15lp0iFUsoginpQTtus8+KUk/OpzjA8UnaNlWwPX 9V4SngFauBFtYE+e69Im11YlcS0PyAHrf+DCsT7dLdVE6lylvnO9kd6FZT2JK3sr68 8Mw3p5UYP6GKA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4NvxQl6lg2z6tm4; Sun, 15 Jan 2023 14:51:43 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Tim Cross Cc: tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda In-Reply-To: <63c32848.620a0220.dec52.1f9c@mx.google.com> References: <63c287ca.a70a0220.4bd14.873b@mx.google.com> <87pmbh1hgx.fsf@localhost> <63c2b8e4.a70a0220.e3b6d.0051@mx.google.com> <87edrxyyeq.fsf@localhost> <87bkn1yx59.fsf@localhost> <87lem582qw.fsf@localhost> <63c32848.620a0220.dec52.1f9c@mx.google.com> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2023 13:52:15 +0000 Message-ID: <87o7qzewhc.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1673790762; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=tEYpNUpuVv8OA6JYUDhxuup6ECFUuCeoYtFCIRqNDxHo8sGkkrgdJGp2FnzFImnvsntg9V ckYth4edi/pvfkFl/G2d+s7/dh7cMe3A4AUvbV7ZswVXCJV0qeDLSLQj20+gJU5craBjLC CULopD5PIM74df1LV1BkGy9TYCi41Kljp6HvJ7dZz3dlrIz03VjaOQckTGL3PGkBhtEqdi uurtYggLlNZDm7f9dDMDA8Ip2Qk14F/71pqCK8149HEbE4JC5ULpzR9QsZC/p0F/RQfnP9 sWcd0LxAk1QzsiTtpqE4y44oDoxlTXdu6kNjzYuRaNtZrM60Az1FX2GQ+VCLiA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b="Je4FPL/k"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1673790762; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=PWkbEwIOkXO81dcRLi5rL0ppQ/z+oRnyzwoDux4Y2ec=; b=ig0zOjjciOXf/0fpVLlQrgoVuQSIdVkLWzz6dzeEXtAp91LceR5jn6tS1Slr3dQHjxoKHu cg0cQy9CsuA6YydfFQl0D+yGUgcCyRqsiW7JXGKr5jow2hWo30z+K20WeceUeilEjdIpUF 8X5Lo8sTJwSgS1qnvLuUoOaUr6686wWRcyIB4pyX/PXIG/HPuaW8vNbhbrskgzlrYzDoVA Lgnp/NzbN1rPN6rNlrq/7ZH/vD5EcS/Va+p8oY9XKqK+6weXBE+L/+yOv8WleU2S7nytW8 Z0ZoKeCr3BIASUDY3TjJadIymcotppb8qxpT2a8xrbPqG+cELBiju91L7D7W9Q== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.56 X-Spam-Score: -4.56 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 95399F960 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b="Je4FPL/k"; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net X-TUID: LeLHb3MilNSk Tim Cross writes: >> In any case, selection of time zone for user timestamps is not something >> we need to worry about in Org code. Users are to decide. Org might >> assist, but I do not see anything meaningful we can do to help with DST. > > I think I basically agree with the last statement. However, perhaps we > need to step back and ask ourselves what it is that people do want which > drives this feature request. I doubt it is simply the ability to add TZ > information to timestamps. I suspect the underlying motivation here is > to have org mode actually use this information in a meaningful way, > which essentially means all the complicated stuff I'm concerned about > and which you seem to imply we wouldn't manage anyway. I don't imply that. What I am saying is that we first need to decide on syntax and provide basic support for time zones. It will already be helpful as I won't need to convert timestamps into local time or think if I need to convert timestamps ahead of time before a flight to different time zone. More things can be implemented once we have the basic support. > To put it another way, we need to clarify what people mean when they > request the feature of timestamp support in org-mode datestamps. What > does this actually mean? Is it as simple as just being able to specify > the timezone (seems relatively easy to implement, but doens't really add > much) or is the expectation that once you have time zone information, it > will be used to do things like adjust date+time in agenda based on > change in locale or change in daylight savings status etc. Converting timestamps with time zone to local time is indeed one of the basic features we need to support. > Clarifying the end goal will likely focus the discussion a lot > more. My interpretation, which could well be too extreme, is that people > want more than just the ability to add TZ info to their timestamps. They > want their agenda to reflect correct meeting/schedule times based on > their current locale, which may have changed since the initial timestamp > was recorded. They want time duration calculations which are able to > handle DS transitions etc, they want their agenda/calendar to adjust in > a similar way to how their Google calendar will adjust based on DS > transitions. I do not see any obstacle to having these basic features either. We already use `encode-time' in time calculations across Org. So, all the operations on times already use internal time representation. We will get all the features you named pretty much for free just by supplying time zone to `encode-time' calls. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at