From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id WOB2FDiH32MmvgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 11:38:48 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id uE9NFDiH32NEDQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 11:38:48 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EDA4D13C27 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2023 11:38:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pOcPP-0001TN-Tx; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:38:07 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pOcPO-0001TD-Ba for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:38:06 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pOcPM-0001wh-8i for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Feb 2023 05:38:06 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E74CB240140 for ; Sun, 5 Feb 2023 11:38:01 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1675593481; bh=NYRSFGTMXFGTm+IoEcrEdpzAPvfyBbnwUxOPRELBnzs=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=W1mmDsrzMk0htNrgrAdGuW4M1G/1AJomDxLsLK4FqH2gqtU4CkgqzOrUeIIHNS8rG ebCje5PkQMfykM/Gb5gl25p9fWmzTF1a+oSqQvfck2EH0tMAmuZ5P/TzJodBKDnwbT psiQJ2bTSFOm+mStZAUvHQsjZbPvJtmZSfjEau8PNnNo/V+I92w3eNxbFi1HZZIYEi h1I9NUX9BJYWDLHCPSKVXojNtI72MDmkDUXjUHpSBXzrBGi0NlwHtGmg3qn2pPiLIq RVYjEvtRaWWs9JmH+y6tAffmdSTkVsEXynoQ3JV8VXAypise8zXftJRuAqUktMWlCR u47s+K90kU7VA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P8m7X07Fzz6tnM; Sun, 5 Feb 2023 11:37:59 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Samuel Wales Cc: Greg Minshall , Sterling Hooten , "Thomas S. Dye" , Tim Cross , Jean Louis , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [POLL] Proposed syntax for timestamps with time zone info (was: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda) In-Reply-To: References: <87fsc88aq9.fsf@localhost> <63c7dd3d.170a0220.6b4d6.f84f@mx.google.com> <877cxk6oeu.fsf@localhost> <63c86454.170a0220.80970.652d@mx.google.com> <63c8f5a6.170a0220.ea8cf.7f96@mx.google.com> <63c9b654.170a0220.d82d2.4254@mx.google.com> <87mt6e86sr.fsf@tsdye.online> <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> <2150768.1675077958@archlinux> <87tu063ox2.fsf@localhost> <871qn9letw.fsf@localhost> Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2023 10:38:39 +0000 Message-ID: <87o7q8e6s0.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675593528; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=uUK8URSn/eMiLshjX/kzucOaK9655xo1NM5PjFqp32Q=; b=a5JK1rCzj7v3TlkUaNOtkJj6ltuMoAcrTzvbTIhYHfrPP+zBx9n2/03azeYAozoAC30pIe AuhDFzSET1lyc91j6UFDXALWfC8GR6BeKwFNNAWpBvidsad0I0tCcBqkh1T48BuSBG4/mG W9/IqXcfQhtDjiwLynMEZGto/buqTJ8kQCw6QxjPVK4GjjbUEMMrKgmo4LNGIylJEs1EwL ES1+GavHcDZoycMDeqSZrve8n/wMBc27y2weARuneKR4thLZKPOBFli0IaQAA66CQ59B5D cQyIID9JVPwl+MnAvpxw+uEU+VV9n56pV1933ElZNXJzPqL1q098yoiXD78bsg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=W1mmDsrz; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675593528; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=L2FcOtmuxPtWld+o3diejGlHIhBBSJWeCyzVYrjCowwedNNpozW7kFgubpDqTspj+QSPBz 9GFuasnhMCRVvDVLd1lSQZNVQQDjK7T/50Ksibaqbz6/HyrVckKx8V0GBWP6/7/erZnUCd PuiL+1APDBwYDFzhTfl2RiMRol6NwubltxHb3Fsrze0W8MsHz5zkr5aL2iUyeX0mXlOEL9 gfe2Mq/nv/0HSzBl7BsSUqO6qkcLK4E9QV+EuuXtHR4/Qb7wiRabO01E2Fdwz8J/ulV2Ct 9QzclCWRyEpzMbWOrdFxSQSoYA9m6eXnou/R+0HcXL0oKL+EQ/4VezP6AKdukw== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.05 X-Spam-Score: -6.05 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EDA4D13C27 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=W1mmDsrz; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: k0j7sUQ9rjAD Samuel Wales writes: > On 2/1/23, Ihor Radchenko wrote: >> the best we can do is minimizing the breakage when designing the new syntax > > as a small nit [followup is not needed as i do not want to distract > from the big boys talking about quantum dst on pluto for timestamps > with [axial precession change :[]*, or follow up, as i have given up > on the topic of tz for timestamps :]]: That was a half-joke :) [ and, anyway, I do not see why TZDB will not cover Moon TZ once a standard comes out ] > it might be that i was not making a point for which it is entirely > true that what you and everybody else is proposing, i.e. extending > existing ts syntax for tz, is the best we can do, in principle. :] > what you said is true if you stick, for tz-using tses, with extending > /existing/ ts syntax, as opposed to countenancing, for those tses, an > extensible syntax that is also usable for ts-unrelated features and > subfeatures so as to reduce proliferation of new, heterogenous, syntax > as it will arise in future and has arisen for many years [i prefer > less syntax], and other stuff like reusable infrastructure for > semantics and parsing and display etc. and optional ability for users > to extend syntax themselves readily without it being heterogenous but > instead merely cl-style kw, Your idea with universal custom object with cl-style properties is not forgotten. But it is something should leave as the last resort for users. Simply because its syntax will inevitably be verbose. My vision is that Org syntax should be something intuitive for a person not familiar with Org manual, simple enough to not distract reading the Org files in plain text without fontification, yet machine-readable. Too verbose syntax will violate the second point as it will move Org constructs closer to html tags - too cluttered for reading the sources directly. That's why we need to provide _simple_ built-in syntax for common needs. And time zone support is a common need as evident from the topic surfacing again and again over the years. > [*] i have read that global warming relates to earth axis precession > change due to contemporary mass loss primarily in Greenland. for all > i know, also the origins of org coincidentally being due to an > astrophysicist, this could affect tses. I'd say that it could affect summer time :) -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at