From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id YNbjNacKsWG3bAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 20:42:31 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 6CmeMacKsWEmVAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 19:42:31 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 325452540D for ; Wed, 8 Dec 2021 20:42:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52760 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv2pi-00062j-88 for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:42:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40846) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv2oC-0005NN-CM for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:40:57 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:47621) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mv2oA-0005RQ-AD for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 14:40:56 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1638992449; bh=ZpnJy7BJ0aBLqIzzOP7Q2BXe2O2SygY+ATghNyedaa8=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=NN9tKyqTEEy4s9gJG9yt3TEqJGAgH+DGqjtRRSSphXa2G2iMT9a+z84FAHnDhBtit JRRoX88Az/ia51ak/zv3v5Kswsdf4F8jrDOrf6c1Ieo1Vc4CVYl/PzrxMjsCAi2I0Z jfzBpha9GHtSu8KSnYl7a7W13Fv6OKq33+KFghrQ= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.27.113]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb106 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MHmqC-1mjY630D02-00F1DJ; Wed, 08 Dec 2021 20:40:49 +0100 References: <87sfv75s4r.fsf@posteo.net> <87o85vbb9a.fsf@localhost> <87y24zs40r.fsf@posteo.net> <87lf0zb6fq.fsf@localhost> <87ilw3419x.fsf@gmail.com> <87o85v9la3.fsf@localhost> <87a6he4ngu.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0gf5hud.fsf@localhost> <87tufjt8r1.fsf@gmail.com> <87zgpbuktz.fsf@web.de> User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" To: Russell Adams Subject: Re: Concrete suggestions to improve Org mode third-party integration :: an afterthought following Karl Voit's Orgdown proposal Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2021 20:22:31 +0100 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87lf0uvq9s.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:Z/Gz9aZm9WWQUiGZQgVqLPLIrkQ1fZ2203JKh8EbFKp54FCRiGs /wricolTmLRNgJC+n1MZ0BzFA2uICSes74u9OXdpScSkfsalscjR+4UVuKyn3vrMfdTv7Ir s9ruNmLqlwQFVTXsEeSpiP2HbfZat3XHZYWlhDsJDB1DtZn78n5lvzKHD8ubDkEmrSYD1B5 62kzR3wxaV86wcAOKux9g== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:tz7d5Lse3LI=:HGAATyJhLvwWFi/uiS/eXC z+oBB+Y0IAajGxOx43vZjw/NXHmuuqlFW75S95HfN/PHImB09Z/oEXUDNIOd407r6tLoLfqtI FFddamtb+WtJmqGZ/XBQ4hhWZUmycBDlX8ySTAwOY0p925DLUHO0PCWmpky7t9MeG1GVusNyD c7+QEwV8di3L3bitVIhc42twbKO+qvNaOWjF4IEg1v81LGM0fYbKRyCOy4lVVV8HGaK+PNwVc YCEbufhI4LZrF4Dzo/QQ1UZdkc/5qyB+688FQ5++cxRZ8HUh/V6TpBkH0eHzYVh/oCmnLOz1P b1vQ8QMdYN9XQviuOgrdOhZlZqxR5pfSsH0X3YPKHK1UAScvOg/iTTsGW1W+7T6JuY+q1xB50 a0wOOXaKfooSF+szW27reLjeXobVzer42mt181hkdO5kxPiO/IhUOIK+kT4BFYqUBqDbiK8/q Nm48X1Z2adoA23XMKUBTwFIC8tikhJNcDJX+YC7/+Osg0tfKm823ZQFGPjkKn1RVQmdpmXTTm Ld0G6j5gCgwmc4ElY+lSm/84YOjtYkLu8z6c5bpF1uNKu3aU0dXfeoJ6EfCKNru696BnR9X4G iqIFznruvP1V/U06oLSgvm7x5qjIFncN2L/LdtiF2lh0Kv06J9r47xunhq77c1xJq7vKKT3iS RkYvAZCPmmBGw2Hlu2yg+n/gZj3vA3BIyACJV1Fc7xDrI574pLq/D18AyPPIV6qmxNLRdif38 nmLbwNy1gbBVjkZCaYOgguoiQpQMNb4iWSypsqDJd0EhiAlv/KxySVh49n+HDm0iSlOQv/kBp iBHvY4sCQ3akQmeGME878qGhiHOP1t9QvtFVXJtuQaoi6vNqUgNA25rLUwVHBWs4/Q3s8JKpv grmbCohb4jv7/VxQp2I4k4IWlCVh4eFnBoEU2ls6kt07t3/c2JTydwQ3L/b6hOjsth9Jucmlq 8S07GT8QmXqShzqqvdA84sbGNBunC6u0t57iKKfjv9kn/XvJ4N6rU+Er8/1gZ2eyFGUo6Bp+E nNibaEsW0cQHfQXQXG5zTWCdMqiv7X8ikJ08iCpLkmdblIEX4xAAhboDpeH+qsoeJRfQb3F4S wLTra7JO3sfVTI= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.11; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638992551; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Ac839D95UbVeeiii5Y5d80rzF9Woz8x6ItjyxtBkzV8=; b=Og3cq82EBxR0fTFYKSAFGNbSo3df7UUvndpCgWpCrJy+iuyX7fRKciVb2yhFPTAA8G/FVt 3mHgDJpv+31yExroIILKf5N5hna01Yzd0RtltTh+peUtA32SZg4a4H4vYo57CzARpPqX0B jHMzmFYHmgRVv8QVB9stn8QkStLdqhm4GF5Ya3q03a1orEreDpv5ZAihQj7tmu04gQ7ljn GJh9alRJNo7VnLIJEjKDyItuQD8Je4GmFlmOa4ruzZnEk1I4HldPDnZm/pu9HD1OQ6KkXv Nz9LMIyaKygSE5D2Bzibi9nHle//ZSyHBuwTI7lUNFIxqAE9qoYctvpxPwbRIw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638992551; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=IADwepQdKEmNgExpDVF+g0S/WmGxsu2Ag4BCd0R0icJaDQfPAutg/qZHvG0AVbUuazzY4z 4bSgddamJiAA0NU24/pSy0++JwQ35tczXzCTOhtLXUIC9NQYFJ3dJfdcPEnJECN0pnUQ/J STjRx5uJ48Vwos3p6Uexsn0lVp5IMnnDOs57C9zYV2xpfx/ezFx9GT4Ey1z+EpHZKtWA0t vXw4EdMSUgtdpdSjGH8y931PleBTHYzoZGebq3rdoDCTXneR1MVXiXw9y5DVu51u/x8xiU GA44jnn/mJu+JjGJaQVha7eGONiEh34wc+P2Tw8YFolnBgiFqTewpviWwr8Jig== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=NN9tKyqT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.25 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=NN9tKyqT; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 325452540D X-Spam-Score: -6.25 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: wBJ5n9aaR5XL --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Russell Adams writes: > On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 05:16:20PM +0100, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote: >> >> Tim Cross writes: >> >> > Backwards compatibility is important and changes should never be done >> > lightly. However, that doesn't mean they don't occur (we have already >> > had breaking changes, so old org files are likely to have issues >> > already). Backwards compatibility can also become a burden and >> >> I already spent several hours fixing old presentations, because of org >> format changes, so I want to put in a strong vote for backwards >> compatibility. > > I agree completely. Luckily org-lint provides great insights into > changes. Reading the release notes between major versions is a good > idea. I have found that anytime I've had a problem it was well > documented in the release notes, and that I simply neglected to read > them. > >> If you have 1400 slides of lectures, all carefully laid out to convey >> information as best as possible, and you realize a few days before the >> lecture when you want to update them that the layout is broken, because >> of some minor change in interpretation of empty headlines in org-beamer >> export so you have to go over each slide individually to make sure that >> nothing is cut off and no layout is broken =E2=80=94 and check the compi= le to >> latex many times until the layout is working again =E2=80=94 that is a h= uge >> cost. > > I don't see this as much different from the issues encountered with > compiling code with libraries. During development you have to freeze > libraries you're working against. After an update, you'll have to > check again. > > I've had this come up in my professional documents on occasion, and > I've developed habits to help. For instance: > > - Every file gets an export header template and all settings are done > there. > > - Exported documents must never depend on variables in my > init.el. All variables must be stored as file local variables if > they required customization against Org defaults. I actually have separate .emacs.d folders and autotools setups for most of my org-mode projects. But that=E2=80=99s to separate it from my emacs se= tup, not as protection against a potentially volatile=C2=B9 document format. > - I run org-lint first if I suspect a problem. > > - I pay latex experts to make my templates so I don't have to. > > - Anything outside of basic Org syntax, tables and source blocks I do > directly in latex. Images are a good example. I will use latex code > for the image, sizing, orientation, etc instead of relying on Org's > extended syntax for image links, caption, and attributes. > As a result my publishing has been pretty consistent for customer > documents. I also only update my Org between projects. ;] If I had needed a stronger argument for more backwards compatibility, this list of habits is it. That should not be required to keep your org-mode documents working. I use org-mode for a lecture I give as small side-job because I like teaching. It is not my main job. And I use org-mode for hobby-projects. Yes, the hobby project is a 400 page RPG rulebook, but it is still a hobby project. And I use org-mode to publish my personal website (also as a Hobby), with about 150% that size. And my projects do not end. Some of these documents are already in use for a decade. Org-mode is not just a library, it keeps user-data. It should really not be volatile=C2=B9. If I can=E2=80=99t trust org-mode to keep working but have to check the documents every time I come back to them =E2=80=94 and might have to spend = hours fixing them =E2=80=94 then it not suitable for writing, as much as that wou= ld pain me (because it would cast into doubt most of my decisions around writing of the past decade). To date, I only had a bigger problem once (and that hurt a lot, because it was just before giving a lecture, so I had to ditch most of the improvements I wanted to do and instead spend all the time fixing the document), but the talk here about =E2=80=9Csometimes you have to break compatibility=E2=80=9D goes into a direction I consider as very dangerous. Please do not make org-mode volatile.=C2=B9 Org-Mode and Emacs have mostly been stable the past 15 years. And it is good to be stable; a strength that is highlighted much too seldomly. Best wishes, Arne =C2=B9: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmGxCkAQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD6+E6EADXgMUcSbSYI20uJoWNu2uLQGXAVtR3OEgW Suqol+97NpER7dn/2poqBV+1f2y4y8PUrJcXTGr0mEoDGm3BeYjJQsE5MdNSyOeq NAncF6bitGLbtw1i07zYKWvzwkuKrOoZxXYTCuUx8nkpqNVyRdLUxi+a3xZFRR5o FeL9BKgkS7lEfDo/Vohhrgk2OA5a8vF4CsVPwhjrxOnTo3sPVqhx0g35J8CPMnFr cW8MY4Iq2gDRWJcE5+ngbvsGYFpnVKEkJkVIbr3q/qtCvb+Gnl2XadUdfBm99kkv akVxIOxVUf75NEFSj2SKIoYM69JoMrNkLcy3AmxzYEfnPfwcfGr2vLU4547ZHvpJ lHo08Eg4prF/0/57fBSQblO6q/mjv59NmgC6CqVlqrpenXCuEihtgLU05sOCMEuk Z0/g/ohcwOpsOAVTidQDmtCxv31Xh/Cgd5sRjHf7a9pRJibQQVpKgW1Xqi5qzlSy 65ObAfOQsYnzmcnzwuJveQhnNsL7xyLG0XlQg07cD7dwH3uvBUXvxu3A8sHHYzGO d4UELnAWeVXUxQRZb4LxC9+uoAeflGwBmxcHxQL0qx8DGT3deVn8dka/z/dS4fva uXTdtsjprddGrfla3hr3xsYNfS/u5BdkmZxYhPLeYGNu3ytW2fNmqBX3GcY/96Dw nteR7zANUojEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmGxCkAQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSFIMA/45s3dZCU6IHIsnQdamIrF7lMFT gijmJ4YR/91mC1Kw8nScplm8npM4ce5fuveo878ydD3LC7bs//D/43aJNugao95P 7983g0OG6YutksQED7cqnXAXOzKBiLQP4SZaVnMU6Dambtx8I7tRotskZUzOq5Px dsh3o1DnjnbsEwIFcQ== =fIkE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--