From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id oBoGF/6w02OaywAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:09:50 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8Mb1Fv6w02OfYwEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:09:50 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04AA13E85D for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:09:50 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pLMbL-0000pT-Sa; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:08:59 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pLMbJ-0000p0-Gi for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:08:57 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pLMbG-0000j8-Qw for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 06:08:57 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD1422406C8 for ; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:08:49 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1674817731; bh=0YsGG5YdX5SBfrodVNi6vC3RL8opDoK2MpEODrC45KQ=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=lHzvtgG5X1NV0T9rfZu4zeK+qBuiKlJobsXZZrCutdD1XcLvMyTHl8Wq0O6Tijim9 Rhh+uoBjAQJ/rR2cSlSwFeAdZAzBs4wJ9EZFCU/YJrnLkBRJqG49sqgkA6wnEhZYag wMSju03WCs7RjJ717sFMxUjaSXFk0yhFeirVCKxFMKomVIavLEvWSNqWhiYXjcn+1Y KTg+5T1Nlqblj5ALz+uM+kMpdBwzDvxKQtrqRn0mwaODZvc/U26q04pT6HNLaGG6x7 NZGSr146e1QH+mtwCgJyTbRtVMeEBZ5ZY3mCWBxcN8MuVDBcBpmipgzR6VQo9cjF7e +kPbIEFd/NNRA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4P3FFC4RRRz9rxW; Fri, 27 Jan 2023 12:08:47 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Sterling Hooten Cc: "Thomas S. Dye" , Tim Cross , Jean Louis , Daryl Manning , rjhorn@alum.mit.edu, emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: [FEATURE REQUEST] Timezone support in org-mode datestamps and org-agenda In-Reply-To: <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> References: <63c66048.630a0220.427bf.a5f6@mx.google.com> <87r0vtiks0.fsf@localhost> <63c671c0.a70a0220.61aa5.56b8@mx.google.com> <87fsc88aq9.fsf@localhost> <63c7dd3d.170a0220.6b4d6.f84f@mx.google.com> <877cxk6oeu.fsf@localhost> <63c86454.170a0220.80970.652d@mx.google.com> <63c8f5a6.170a0220.ea8cf.7f96@mx.google.com> <63c9b654.170a0220.d82d2.4254@mx.google.com> <87mt6e86sr.fsf@tsdye.online> <63c9d976.620a0220.a7d40.113b@mx.google.com> <87tu0mjb24.fsf@tsdye.online> <63ca1283.170a0220.5bc81.0fdd@mx.google.com> <87pmb9k8oi.fsf@tsdye.online> <3035CDD5-41DD-4516-9E4E-9E0DF16BE2E0@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2023 11:09:20 +0000 Message-ID: <87lelo8c9r.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674817790; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=0YsGG5YdX5SBfrodVNi6vC3RL8opDoK2MpEODrC45KQ=; b=uMsufzy2xE88BKzo82tTTCbZY/Fdnlt8udhqWXQqVlv7Vm+T+MryiY96arSMa9hjJGRq9H mTINCNlO8PpNtGofG1mzGzG3PHrzIAuNRArvaGPV7W8+H6Xv4NJZeOWPTChF4H1CBH5bbC z+fFLX+WIdE1IPzXf1xuj3FoWhPYGAbazgHz818UcxY1VlxK3vtW0sR2E8WoWZbpepdh2T g9fNO/OA1CsmLGyWynb+yfO3wIQo+vLWJAas2GoE8t5j4zTtdeV+M1EpwL5+rafChE7GNR QaDrHtB+6tyj/t2OVH5TYwcuflfCx+we44LHsRLU63SClVbbHq1SFcpzLOTUlw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=lHzvtgG5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674817790; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=MYNC0CCrBTzGI42L8UOzZR9BCF2521ovkdA+QSF+llBrCk3tBuYflvWsfY+klfNKHy+1BY UTdj8fVsPzHcm4pHrd1wFDs064yK1hDbK1x+7pz71gwvKNumIKGtJtFoAJLAEt1Dhj22jP gtB2C+aRZc5+0FpSsv9r2s9+NtI7tcVRtT+hGzWWYnID93b0142caJWDlBZo8PCcebSwA5 FGpgn+G59qUtDE6UpaxrgBhxiQtE0LFqtf/h7EExSilhYUqNhvyh6JLYHAyK4FSZhxa8PS voN4RYNEOK3T556laQq/kHwhWiS9hsS9QtMsRw3I7NmtZ6BUtraOW13T4CX4XQ== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=lHzvtgG5; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.53 X-Spam-Score: -4.53 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 04AA13E85D X-TUID: QfDQ5fDl9h3R First of all, thanks for the detailed suggestion! I will need more time to look through the provided links and think about the ideas. I will provide one important consideration you missed in the below comment. Sterling Hooten writes: > What format and syntax should Org use? > > A heretical suggestion: We should abandon the day of week abbreviation > and use a new format. > ... > [2023-01-25 Wed 13:57]=E2=80=93[2023-01-26 Thu 13:57] > > it would be: > > [2023-01-25T16:57:42Z/2023-01-26T16:57:42Z]. Following ISO and other standards is indeed a reasonable idea. However, the standards are not necessarily designed for human consumption. In contrast, Org mode is designed to be read by humans as well, even without Emacs - just as plain text. Design for human consumption is one of the reasons we do provide the redundant information like week day (I personally did find it extremely useful on multiple occasions) and do use spaces, deviating from ISO. The above ISO example is barely readable by humans. Another example from wiki page of ISO 8601 is even worse: R5/2008-03-01T13:00:00Z/P1Y2M10DT2H30M And we need to deviate from ISO 8601 anyway. At least, because it does not define time zones, only absolute UTC offsets. So, the ability to conform with the existing formats remains questionable. --=20 Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at