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* org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
@ 2013-01-23 17:42 Moritz Ulrich
  2013-01-24 14:08 ` Bastien
  2013-01-24 20:42 ` Achim Gratz
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Moritz Ulrich @ 2013-01-23 17:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emacs-orgmode

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1140 bytes --]


Hello,

I just installed org-plus-contrib from org's elpa repository, coming
From custom git checkout. 

After removing the (require 'org-install) (because of the warning it now
generates) I get the following error when trying to open the agenda
dispatcher:

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Debugger entered--Lisp error: (invalid-function org-no-popups)
  org-no-popups(#<buffer  *Agenda Commands*>)
  org-switch-to-buffer-other-window(" *Agenda Commands*")
  byte-code(...)
  org-agenda-get-restriction-and-command(nil)
  byte-code(...)
  org-agenda(nil)
  call-interactively(org-agenda nil nil)
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

(byte-code removed for sanity)


I installed the following package:

org-plus-contrib   20130121     installed  Outline-based notes
management and organizer


Any hints? Googling just pointed me to a mail thread where removing,
restarting Emacs and re-installing the package fixed everything - that
doesn't work for me.


I'm thankful for any pointers.


Cheers,
Moritz Ulrich


-- 
Moritz Ulrich

[-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 486 bytes --]

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-23 17:42 org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups Moritz Ulrich
@ 2013-01-24 14:08 ` Bastien
  2013-01-24 20:42 ` Achim Gratz
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-01-24 14:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Moritz Ulrich; +Cc: Emacs-orgmode

Hi Moritz,

Moritz Ulrich <moritz@tarn-vedra.de> writes:

> Any hints? Googling just pointed me to a mail thread where removing,
> restarting Emacs and re-installing the package fixed everything - that
> doesn't work for me.

It's safer not to use GNU ELPA or Org ELPA for installing Org 
for now.  Yes, that's a bit an awkward statement to make, but
still -- if you can, install from Git or the .tar/zip archive.

All best,

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-23 17:42 org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups Moritz Ulrich
  2013-01-24 14:08 ` Bastien
@ 2013-01-24 20:42 ` Achim Gratz
  2013-01-24 21:59   ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Achim Gratz @ 2013-01-24 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Moritz Ulrich writes:
> Any hints? Googling just pointed me to a mail thread where removing,
> restarting Emacs and re-installing the package fixed everything - that
> doesn't work for me.

You read that wrong.  What should work is installing, re-starting Emacs,
removing and re-installing the package in the same session, restarting
Emacs again.  But only if the package activation happens very early.

> I'm thankful for any pointers.

Another option is to remove all *.elc files from the package directory.
If a freshly started Emacs then works correctly, you can follow the
instructions on Worg of how to compile Org without make.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Blofeld:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-24 20:42 ` Achim Gratz
@ 2013-01-24 21:59   ` Bastien
  2013-01-25  6:48     ` Achim Gratz
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-01-24 21:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> Moritz Ulrich writes:
>> Any hints? Googling just pointed me to a mail thread where removing,
>> restarting Emacs and re-installing the package fixed everything - that
>> doesn't work for me.
>
> You read that wrong.  What should work is installing, re-starting Emacs,
> removing and re-installing the package in the same session, restarting
> Emacs again.  But only if the package activation happens very early.

Which is just too complex.

>> I'm thankful for any pointers.
>
> Another option is to remove all *.elc files from the package directory.
> If a freshly started Emacs then works correctly, you can follow the
> instructions on Worg of how to compile Org without make.

I already suggested to *not* use ELPA at all for now.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-24 21:59   ` Bastien
@ 2013-01-25  6:48     ` Achim Gratz
  2013-01-25  8:51       ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Achim Gratz @ 2013-01-25  6:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Bastien writes:
> I already suggested to *not* use ELPA at all for now.

I happen to think that this suggestion goes too far (if you think nobody
should use OIrg from ELPA, then you'd need to stop making it available
there and hopefully we already agreed that this isn't an option).  There
is actually no problem with ELPA when you install Org from it before
you've used Org (it wasn't designed to cope with any other situation).
In most cases that means simply using a fresh Emacs instance to install
Org from ELPA is good enough.  In those cases where Org is loaded during
initialization (and systems doing that really shouldn't do this before
package-initialize or else unload any features they have needed), one
can resort to 'emacs -Q' if the package directory has not been changed
from the defaults or '(unload-feature 'org t)' when that would be a
concern.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

SD adaptations for Waldorf Q V3.00R3 and Q+ V3.54R2:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSDada

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-25  6:48     ` Achim Gratz
@ 2013-01-25  8:51       ` Bastien
  2013-01-25 10:33         ` Bastien
  2013-01-25 19:59         ` Achim Gratz
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-01-25  8:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> Bastien writes:
>> I already suggested to *not* use ELPA at all for now.
>
> I happen to think that this suggestion goes too far (if you think nobody
> should use OIrg from ELPA, then you'd need to stop making it available
> there and hopefully we already agreed that this isn't an option).  

No, we did not agreed this isn't an option.

I think this is an option.

> There
> is actually no problem with ELPA when you install Org from it before
> you've used Org (it wasn't designed to cope with any other situation).
> In most cases that means simply using a fresh Emacs instance to install
> Org from ELPA is good enough.  In those cases where Org is loaded during
> initialization (and systems doing that really shouldn't do this before
> package-initialize or else unload any features they have needed), one
> can resort to 'emacs -Q' if the package directory has not been changed
> from the defaults or '(unload-feature 'org t)' when that would be a
> concern.

How can you make sure that Org-mode has not been used before people 
want to install an updated version through GNU/Org ELPA?

I can't think of any good way.

Until someone have an idea about this, I'm very serious about removing
the possibility of installing Org through ELPA.  But as I said I won't
do this before getting a sense of what the users use and expect.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-25  8:51       ` Bastien
@ 2013-01-25 10:33         ` Bastien
  2013-01-25 19:59         ` Achim Gratz
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-01-25 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Bastien <bzg@altern.org> writes:

> How can you make sure that Org-mode has not been used before people 
> want to install an updated version through GNU/Org ELPA?

Note that some people use Org early in the initialization process,
e.g. for their Emacs configuration file.  My guess is that the people
who use this are also the ones who are likely to install Org thru ELPA
so we need to take that into account.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-25  8:51       ` Bastien
  2013-01-25 10:33         ` Bastien
@ 2013-01-25 19:59         ` Achim Gratz
  2013-01-26 10:45           ` Bastien
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Achim Gratz @ 2013-01-25 19:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Bastien writes:
> Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:
>> I happen to think that this suggestion goes too far (if you think nobody
>> should use OIrg from ELPA, then you'd need to stop making it available
>> there and hopefully we already agreed that this isn't an option).  
>
> No, we did not agreed this isn't an option.

My reading comprehension may be at an all-time low, but this is what you
wrote in another thread:

>>> This [removing Org from ELPA -ed] is using Org users as hostages, I
>>> don't want to do this.

> I think this is an option.

Hm… I'm obviously missing some piece.

> How can you make sure that Org-mode has not been used before people 
> want to install an updated version through GNU/Org ELPA?

That's what the patch does that you didn't like.

> I can't think of any good way.
>
> Until someone have an idea about this, I'm very serious about removing
> the possibility of installing Org through ELPA.  But as I said I won't
> do this before getting a sense of what the users use and expect.

There are exactly two possibilities to get into this situation:

The first is using Org anything before opening the package manager.  I
think it should be possible to educate users that it's better t use a
fresh Emacs instance for updating or installing packages until this has
been fixed in package manager.

The second are things like starter-kit.  I'm thinking that it should be
the responsibility of such software to load and unload Org if they
really need to use it before activating packages and ask for support
from Emacs devs in how to do this properly.  Package manager is a first
class citizen of Emacs by now which means any add-on has to cope with
its existence.  It's interesting to see that the bugs seem to get
chalked up to the packages that are in ELPA rather than the mechanisms
that install them (or prevent proper initialization of Emacs) and it
kind of seems to fly under the radar for this reason even though it
seems to affect many users and has had for quite some time already.


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Wavetables for the Waldorf Blofeld:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#BlofeldUserWavetables

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-25 19:59         ` Achim Gratz
@ 2013-01-26 10:45           ` Bastien
  2013-01-26 12:48             ` Achim Gratz
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-01-26 10:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Achim,

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

> My reading comprehension may be at an all-time low, but this is what you
> wrote in another thread:
>
>>>> This [removing Org from ELPA -ed] is using Org users as hostages, I
>>>> don't want to do this.
>
>> I think this is an option.
>
> Hm… I'm obviously missing some piece.

Yes :)   This is were misunderstanding started:

,----
| > I've to admit that I've had that thought too, but it seems that doing
| > this would perhaps even lower the attention that Emacs' maintainers give
| > to that problem.  
| 
| This is using Org users as hostages, I don't want to do this.
`----

What I meant is this: "Using the fact that Org/ELPA users suffer from
a bug in package.el in hope that this will make Emacs maintainers fix
the package.el bug is using Org/ELPA users as hostages."  (Obviously
my "this" where not equivalent to your "that" in the passage quoted
above.)

>> How can you make sure that Org-mode has not been used before people 
>> want to install an updated version through GNU/Org ELPA?
>
> That's what the patch does that you didn't like.

I don't like it for at least these reasons:

- it introduces an advice in the code -- we should work toward
  removing them, not adding them.

- it advices `require', which is a very core function in Emacs.

This is completely hackish.

>> I can't think of any good way.
>>
>> Until someone have an idea about this, I'm very serious about removing
>> the possibility of installing Org through ELPA.  But as I said I won't
>> do this before getting a sense of what the users use and expect.
>
> There are exactly two possibilities to get into this situation:
>
> The first is using Org anything before opening the package manager.  I
> think it should be possible to educate users that it's better t use a
> fresh Emacs instance for updating or installing packages until this has
> been fixed in package manager.

This is like telling Windows users to reboot their system so that it
can works correctly (remember the old days?).  It feels wrong.  And I 
doubt we can educate the users -- there are many of them, and many
don't have the time to tell they have a problem.

> The second are things like starter-kit.  I'm thinking that it should be
> the responsibility of such software to load and unload Org if they
> really need to use it before activating packages and ask for support
> from Emacs devs in how to do this properly.  Package manager is a first
> class citizen of Emacs by now which means any add-on has to cope with
> its existence.  It's interesting to see that the bugs seem to get
> chalked up to the packages that are in ELPA rather than the mechanisms
> that install them (or prevent proper initialization of Emacs) and it
> kind of seems to fly under the radar for this reason even though it
> seems to affect many users and has had for quite some time already.

I'm not sure what solution you suggest here.

In general, I think the benefit of having several ELPA distributions
of Org is not worth the trouble of dealing with installation issues.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-26 10:45           ` Bastien
@ 2013-01-26 12:48             ` Achim Gratz
  2013-01-26 13:11               ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Achim Gratz @ 2013-01-26 12:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: emacs-orgmode

Bastien writes:
> I don't like it for at least these reasons:
>
> - it introduces an advice in the code -- we should work toward
>   removing them, not adding them.

That's the mechanism Emacs provides for dealing with those situations.

I could do it without an advice, but it would still do the same things,
namely unload all features that have been shadowed by changing load-path
so that they can be re-loaded from the correct place.  It may have
escaped your attention, but the advice is de-activated at the earliest
possible moment and will not affect any later uses of require.

> - it advices `require', which is a very core function in Emacs.

Which has been discussed on Emacs devel and has been pronounced safe in
this case.

> This is completely hackish.

Like a few hundred other places in Emacs and Org.  Also, when some day
Emacs will perhaps solve the problem, the solution will likely be
something very similar: renaming the require primitive and creating a
wrapper in Lisp that does what the advice is doing.

> This is like telling Windows users to reboot their system so that it
> can works correctly (remember the old days?).  It feels wrong.  And I 
> doubt we can educate the users -- there are many of them, and many
> don't have the time to tell they have a problem.

So why are you trying to educate users not to use ELPA when you think
it's a waste of time?

> I'm not sure what solution you suggest here.

A problem produced by a certain piece of software should be fixed by
that same software.  For example, if starter-kit insists on loading Org
before things are ready, it should also unload Org after it is finished
using it and before the actual initialization commences.

> In general, I think the benefit of having several ELPA distributions
> of Org is not worth the trouble of dealing with installation issues.

You're confusing me.  Do you want to remove Org from ELPA or not?


Regards,
Achim.
-- 
+<[Q+ Matrix-12 WAVE#46+305 Neuron microQkb Andromeda XTk Blofeld]>+

Factory and User Sound Singles for Waldorf Q+, Q and microQ:
http://Synth.Stromeko.net/Downloads.html#WaldorfSounds

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups
  2013-01-26 12:48             ` Achim Gratz
@ 2013-01-26 13:11               ` Bastien
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bastien @ 2013-01-26 13:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Achim Gratz; +Cc: emacs-orgmode

Hi Achim,

Achim Gratz <Stromeko@nexgo.de> writes:

>> - it advices `require', which is a very core function in Emacs.
>
> Which has been discussed on Emacs devel and has been pronounced safe in
> this case.

No.  Stefan just said it was safe to *experiment* with it.

> Like a few hundred other places in Emacs and Org.  Also, when some day
> Emacs will perhaps solve the problem, the solution will likely be
> something very similar: renaming the require primitive and creating a
> wrapper in Lisp that does what the advice is doing.

Feel free to push into that direction in Emacs.

>> This is like telling Windows users to reboot their system so that it
>> can works correctly (remember the old days?).  It feels wrong.  And I 
>> doubt we can educate the users -- there are many of them, and many
>> don't have the time to tell they have a problem.
>
> So why are you trying to educate users not to use ELPA when you think
> it's a waste of time?

I'm not educating anyone.  For users who have problems when installing
Org through ELPA, I advise them to use another method.

> You're confusing me.  Do you want to remove Org from ELPA or not?

I think this is a good option, but I will ping users before,
as I already said.

Please don't waste your time and mine arguing about this.

-- 
 Bastien

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2013-01-26 13:11 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2013-01-23 17:42 org-plus-contrib: Invalid function: org-no-popups Moritz Ulrich
2013-01-24 14:08 ` Bastien
2013-01-24 20:42 ` Achim Gratz
2013-01-24 21:59   ` Bastien
2013-01-25  6:48     ` Achim Gratz
2013-01-25  8:51       ` Bastien
2013-01-25 10:33         ` Bastien
2013-01-25 19:59         ` Achim Gratz
2013-01-26 10:45           ` Bastien
2013-01-26 12:48             ` Achim Gratz
2013-01-26 13:11               ` Bastien

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