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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1638971232; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=v8BQYjZGjBLPF8N4yyzt5SaVfoz3MvCPN9y3sJ4946U=; b=JdNoIUnVS4nCv+1RxNOVGw/xsJJUbW8TRn6kWP/842bBo2BqTfSLwnAetn83gbt8EBJogL ogfv1qIJwbl6MqpBE9m0CC3z4gcrfR9Eh5Ow0YtDZQ947coyPXjsKzFROhdedcs8D8vixw zRncoiRwDfRNwf1WmRb1v3yTwA86ZXsybCNSy+uNYV45WDxyVmRaK9Ap1e4tDdXsW+8jre ayuLXZrTWzlYbRXLfbW08TMOBKJtOrAaK/3MEPqJwTU44A0wBECZnsoew6X9KR7Gimu9VB MoygQFlyhyWNuWPhPc20v3zsvjLzS+1aPOMefbJRyDstCw3I5rzoWqPJMvIr9Q== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1638971232; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=TE3Rd7cmgCm1jWhmDPf/YXMXIOMGUaiBXaUneBju1M/SAe8tgGacNsYPD9xg5IbmOPulMt 7xU/WBu2mGvF1+HCr/KJFCwAFCmoZ91Bz9LKAHk1/X341IBUeVORpTukUn7vM+jVnY77Gh wRrg16Z/CjEQ505yifQu/rQHJeFsvUR164fK9cxzDpceOiqiKdKz7cM45R/BS+l2lB48a/ hXZp6mSLNz9PuisbA/FQGXQKRbqORW1BjGtBCTm0EzY1tdMFEui//RQhkISFTa9b2vWNab +kX1dAK664TWAWXqEzKBogqaurrdv4zSqJ4R0ng+FGE1UdHQlLyWxMmhr6VV8A== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=kLAc2MDR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.65 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=kLAc2MDR; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 677B736430 X-Spam-Score: -3.65 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: cYCcsYgPhlYa Tim Cross writes: > I don't disagree with this objective. My objection is to changing the > emphasis or priority of org mode as an Emacs mode to a general technical > specification for a small part of what is org-mode, the markup (I will > outline the concerns I have in doing this below). I think I was not clear enough in my topic-starter when I framed it as "From the narrow perspective of this mailing list". I do not suggest to change emphasis of the whole Org mode project. Instead, I am trying to suggest a set of improvements to orgmode.org aiming to lure broader auditory to _Org mode for Emacs_ and a change to Org test suite that would allow easier contribution to _Org mode for Emacs_ from third-party developers > ... The other point of > course is that if you make it easier to implement org markdown in other > editors, you don't have control over whether they are implemented in > free or non-free solutions. To be clear, writing Org syntax spec has been decided long time ago. See https://list.orgmode.org/87r1qt9cf0.fsf@gnu.org/ and https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html (started long before that thread). I just suggested to link it to orgmode.org >> The fact is that e.g. Github already provides support for Org markup. >> They do it for their own profit and we cannot stop them. If we have a >> controlled criteria about quality of third-party Org mode support, there >> will be means to interfere with non-free software attempting to makes >> profits out of Org mode. For example, if Github do not integrate our >> recommended test suite (with all the legal consequences defined in >> GPLv3), we will be able to have a list of third-party tools and, among >> free alternatives, mention that Github support for Org is not verified >> and most likely not consistent with other _free_ tools. We cannot do it >> now. >> > > There is a fatal flaw in this argument. The GPL licenses code, not the > underlying idea (which is essentially what patents are about). We can > define all the quality criteria we like for 3rd party implementations, > but we cannot enforce them unless they are also using the GPL'd code. As > this code is elisp, it is extremely unlikely any 3rd party > implementation will be using it. In short, defining clear specifications > and minimal quality criteria will only have baring on code added to org > mode - it would, for example, have no effect on what github has/is > implementing. It is indeed unlikely and not using our tests will degrade its quality if they just use the existing https://orgmode.org/worg/dev/org-syntax.html So, I only see tests as an improvement. > Consider this contrived scenario. As I tried to stress above, I do not suggest to change Org mode project emphasis. Anyway, some of my replies to your statements below might be of interest. > Meanwhile, Emacs development continues and new features/capabilities > continue to be added. In particular, a new feature is added which is > extremely powerful and would be a huge benefit for Emacs org-mode users. > However, there is a problem. In order to take advantage of this new > feature, significant changes are required for the specification. This > will result in implementations requiring considerable work in order to > update them to the new specification. I disagree. We already need to care about back-compatibility of Org syntax (think of org documents written years ago). Major changes to syntax are very unlikely even without considering third-party software. And, by the way, remember the existing "third party" Elisp packages (think of Org roam, for example). We do not want to break them. Best, Ihor