From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id mGdBKCeMO2IWAQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:07:51 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id IKa0JSeMO2IDWwAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:07:51 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B1CE2EDA for ; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:07:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33292 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nX8Cr-0007SG-TZ for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 17:07:49 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47964) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nX8Bm-0007QK-6i for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 17:06:46 -0400 Received: from [2001:4b98:dc4:8::223] (port=59535 helo=relay3-d.mail.gandi.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nX8Bj-0000rE-0O for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 17:06:41 -0400 Received: (Authenticated sender: admin@nicolasgoaziou.fr) by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7CBDA60004; Wed, 23 Mar 2022 21:06:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Nicolas Goaziou To: John Kitchin Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 References: <87wngosqvm.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> Mail-Followup-To: John Kitchin , Vikas Rawal , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 22:06:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: (John Kitchin's message of "Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:31:29 -0400") Message-ID: <87k0ckjs4o.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2001:4b98:dc4:8::223 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:4b98:dc4:8::223; envelope-from=mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr; helo=relay3-d.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Vikas Rawal , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1648069671; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=MibadU6z3ezzcjFFKjHdVE6pdjLnZytfzf9ODjuMqbw=; b=LKeA7OnEKNYQGKIko+7NE2BydGIechSb2JEZmQJMaplDNbJPoQOjFieCmA9ivdCy4tnaBu rq/DAjf8Ut4IX67G6oHQ8moYrg+FI4vUZVTFypXUhgvtLMjoes1lkVjAjEPVA3O9/2+zH0 bPT+N1iCzIMNT1irkljCCIpPHoh77oirJjBpCU3Kh4z/rA1JjyUPUMKiDcXEj8Uv7zcag+ wHo7Hu5KFFQXcs/mEoup430LD3HxfS2F840nBuN9G1iEN8nb8TZQrwDu80FwQMuM6cgaAh hFIBmFQskzxviFXNPf5o2wzSCr5difeRwyvpQM3GvEz59so7eKAUULJaVBlQ0Q== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1648069671; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LoNI6UiFRALf0/XBfk1fCz7VMsPAsprnZXNpIEUNYrDRvxVueMldbMmmCLtXCkbRsp3QKf k8O+Rq+C4O8n7NKQMe5v6r/2/I9ZXHnqwYbtuNE0W5rcDJFjyVizEZqesgsXWJNM9FMpOn IScNG4rD6xWMk637JT7ygmuC8rLiexrrGADlQRZjMV4jshvEG23/8DyEvBXFJ772MkX4AP CDagoCP5ymBg34keVwYErHmIGz6Q6d2cKC7MRAXrDA1hEHDu/TvmiemIxVCiGBv/dmTfbA KmAPg7mdAzKdJWPZajsUi4nQ9r9PG58ziSTmQjzagPp6Hwl3e9kijQkLGphMAg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 3B1CE2EDA X-Spam-Score: -4.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: QmGHgtyhVb6R Hello, John Kitchin writes: > I do not think it is productive for the community to say or consider it > is a sad situation. Many good things have emerged from these > discussions, even if it is not yet consensus on a solution. It is a > complex problem, with many years of effort by many people on each side. > That is an indication of how ambitious this project is and that there > may be more than one solution that is needed. [...] > There are more than 8 years of legacy org-ref documents. I have written > 40+ scientific papers with it, and countless technical documents with > more than 8000 cite links among them. org-ref has exceeded 190K > downloads from MELPA, so I feel obligated to maintain org-ref for > myself, and those users. org-ref may be heavyweight in bundling a lot of > capability together that could be separated into individual packages, > but it is also convenient for people who need it, and a GitHUB issue or > pull request away from new features. I remain committed to supporting > this, and I do it in a way I can manage, hence the monolithic package > design. I think there's a misunderstanding here. Org Cite was never meant as a replacement for Org Ref. It was designed from the beginning as a framework other libraries could rely on and extend in their own way. Org Ref could have been one of them. It looks like a social problem to me. I remember well asking for feedback when implementing the various prototypes, i.e., ways to make Org Cite more useful to other libraries. I don't think I got much of it, barring the cross-references topic, which is not solved. Maybe I was not explicit enough about what I was expecting. For example, this is=E2=80=94pl= ease correct me if I'm wrong=E2=80=94the first time I read about the "BibLaTeX i= s not fully implemented in Org Cite" and "Org Cite is adding an extra abstraction layer on top of BibLaTeX commands" issues, which are both trivial to solve, either on the Org Cite or the Org Ref side. But then again, it is perfectly fine if Org Cite doesn't provide that, as some libraries can extend it if needed. On the other hand, there have been much activity on GitHub repositories, i.e., out of this mailing list. It seems to me Org Ref project has been trying to work around possible blockers in Org Cite project the whole time without the latter knowing about them, and having an opportunity to lift them. > Both projects have benefited from this discussion a lot. org has > org-cite now, and org-ref now handles pre/post notes like org-cite does, > it supports CSL much better, and is even a little more modular, lighter > weight, and more easily integrated with other completion backends than > ivy or helm. That should broadly be viewed as a win-win situation. But it is not. There are now two, more or less official, citations syntax. Interoperability is the big loss. Features do not count; it is perfectly fine to have different packages targeting different needs, as long as they share the same syntax. Hopefully, at some point, we'll be able to build a list of blockers that prevent Org Ref being built on top of Org Cite, and proceed. Regards, --=20 Nicolas Goaziou