From: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
To: Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org
Subject: Re: test-org-table/sort-lines: Failing test on macOS
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 10:37:08 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <87k03mhs8b.fsf@localhost> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <tliroo$6vd$1@ciao.gmane.io>
Max Nikulin <manikulin@gmail.com> writes:
> On 22/11/2022 08:14, Ihor Radchenko wrote:
>> Max Nikulin writes:
>>
>>>> 2. `org-sort-list'
>>>> 5. `org-sort-entries'
>>> `downcase' is used, not proper case folding, so a potential issue
>>
>> `downcase' is used to determine user input about sorting type.
>> Not for sorting itself.
>
> See case-func variable. Its initialization depends on the IGNORE-CASE
> argument. Strings to sort are passed either through `identity' or
> through `downcase'.
Thanks for the pointer.
Now, I am getting more confused though.
Do we even need to use `string-collate-lessp' then?
Eli even argued that `string-collate-lessp' is strictly worse compared
to more predictable approach. See
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=59275#40
Do you remember any cases when users actually demanded locale-specific
sorting?
>>> IGNORE-CASE argument is not used, perhaps `downcase' is hidden in the code.
>>
>> I feel like we are slightly miscommunicating here.
>> I mostly tried to list the uses of libc-sensitive sorting. Not
>> specifically cases when we try to ignore the case.
>>
>> The problem is not limited to case-sensitive comparisons. Some systems
>> may fail to implement specific locales and thus sorting may downgrade to
>> simple string-lessp.
>
> When case folding is not involved, I consider `string-lessp' as a
> graceful degradation. Despite locale rules are not applied, strings are
> mostly sorted. Exceptions exist, but usually order is reasonable.
>
> Completely disregarding IGNORE-CASE argument of `string-collate-lessp'
> on MacOS (that is not a heavily stripped embedded OS) is a bad surprise
> for me.
It was a surprise for me as well. Should be at least a bit more clear
now as I updated the docstring of `string-collate-lessp'.
However, I feel a bit lost about what to do on Org side.
We can put a disclaimer in the manual and all that, but it still feels
too complex.
>>>> 6. Agenda sorting, when alphabetical sorting is involved
>>>
>>> `string-lessp' and `downcase' so even more severe locale-related issues
>>> might be expected.
>>
>> Could you please elaborate?
>
> I admit that `downcase' may be an acceptable workaround since
> `string-collate-lessp' may not work IGNORE-CASE, but I believe, when
> available, `string-collate-lessp' should be the preferred option for
> sorting.
As I pointed above, Eli has an opposite opinion.
I feel that my understanding of the topic is not sufficient to judge.
Maybe we should ask users? (But who is even aware about these things
happening under the hood?)
> I have an idea of a compatibility wrapper for `string-collate-lessp'
> with special treatment of ignoring case and bad libc implementation.
> Apply `downcase' before passing arguments to `string-lessp'. It should
> provide consistency, best user experience when locales works properly,
> and graceful degradation otherwise. I hope, it is acceptable for Org
> even though such trick is undesired for Emacs due to performance reasons.
Macro idea sounds reasonable. Though I am still unsure which direction
we need to go.
> However I am afraid of compatibility shims after
>
> d3a9c424b 2022-08-16 17:15:27 +0800 Ihor Radchenko: org-encode-time:
> Refactor into top-level `defmacro'
What do you refer to?
> I do not like that Emacs relies on locale support (and timezone as well)
> in libc. It becomes a problem as soon as more than one locale should be
> used in simultaneously. I agree that there are enough complications and
> sometimes locale depends on the document (e.g. #+LANGUAGE:), sometimes
> specific locale even restricted to a part of a document. It is tricky to
> handle such cases, but current limitations are too strict (and defective
> `string-collate-lessp' on MacOS is an example).
The question is what can be done and, more importantly, how much effort
will it take to implement and maintain an alternative.
--
Ihor Radchenko // yantar92,
Org mode contributor,
Learn more about Org mode at <https://orgmode.org/>.
Support Org development at <https://liberapay.com/org-mode>,
or support my work at <https://liberapay.com/yantar92>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-11-23 10:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 22+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-10-06 20:15 test-org-table/sort-lines: Failing test on macOS Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-07 12:04 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-08 5:25 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-08 14:27 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-09 3:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-10-09 15:38 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-09 16:53 ` Max Nikulin
2022-10-10 22:25 ` Rudolf Adamkovič
2022-10-12 16:09 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-15 4:10 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-20 4:18 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-20 8:00 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-21 3:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-21 16:48 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-22 1:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-22 16:01 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-23 10:37 ` Ihor Radchenko [this message]
2022-11-23 15:27 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-23 17:01 ` Max Nikulin
2022-11-26 2:05 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-11-29 16:40 ` Max Nikulin
2024-04-03 11:40 ` [DISCUSSION] Sorting strings in Org mode vs. system locale (was: test-org-table/sort-lines: Failing test on macOS) Ihor Radchenko
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