From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id SDDiLG4Vs1/QAwAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:12:30 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id QPLMKG4Vs19KbQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:12:30 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16CC0940415 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 00:12:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:56982 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keobk-0002Ob-74 for larch@yhetil.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:12:28 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33588) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keob4-0002My-FD for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:11:46 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.4]:41361) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1keob2-0002cE-1P for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:11:46 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1605571901; bh=dHzpmG4VtqmRLiulrOEwdu5YRK0eOuuOHZVq3ZRHpYg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=BcXzGadyUPCPRmMnbjRJ9meF9pmX2nFlcLuQ8YRG7HLZPIUlfSuItWziuTIxBgJYl zVLsgx9QEYM6WfMxUl0g+g5vWumjPfkE9h7siSXHDqvsQeAhpEl8VBg75HD7QRWNDB RyLRcHTwgIRWu26D1w+RvHKIPDzTs6Zcble06fzY= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([80.136.19.238]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb005 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MS17v-1kp6P81odv-00TbH0; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:11:41 +0100 References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <871rgtwzrs.fsf@web.de> <87y2j1ahqf.fsf@gmail.com> <87v9e5uw2u.fsf@web.de> <87pn4d9e95.fsf@gmail.com> User-agent: mu4e 1.4.13; emacs 27.1 From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" To: Tim Cross Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? In-reply-to: <87pn4d9e95.fsf@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:11:38 +0100 Message-ID: <87h7povo3p.fsf@web.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:5cvdo+4G1nahtDGUbhoqGHfAQsipbUVd1NCsDzPPIaBtsSimO0X xFsBMDwOrAnxeGD7OdVLVZrLMn2dnMeZEFFEkZ2tMb2LNAWagyDWW6rsoS8DbvVvvTRT3qF rgeflY/I9tlfJB+uBKNvsLahauJa+EtXCXDPREV5GKsY3Oe5qR9+CXGwfJ6oBL+Wap8jlM1 oFjl81/Yytpfr5PSMIldw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qTmwzOODujY=:BN1mqYReqoF7Sa1a7yPo2n 4+VOa1Q1Lr1m3jRl5NcuIgv4O5aUN/sJPrLPIuioxew+OuVGoPdGDqHdf0QHhP1LQkup6Civv QdkIFLNc0hNQvyeWeryBE1RyHCRSHQB3VNi44gcpSB5JYNM1IVEIDP3Tec7HgjVshs38fwMcr 5DwXm5cRUd7JHv8Wz+Sfs54Y/beNLy4GDd8Vmacv6a2WdRweb3yS+ZNJHrbb5UIBqJn3yjlmI hNOIWXS553KpDlYi/ii3YE/fi9FLasasBSYBAuLQsoSZGfn6wPDZGPmHvOcIIYox03QkYuwZz OnZz6RSI10iRErVe3DoxRifypvzapV/wtSTuhrKQdXNhyxA+NcxO/IDNsMBSGM3QOxvvUpTNn Bfo3jp4q+v4E2KGYemRLIYXCoxTrZDrtjuLhMBB12Rz33u155IE1xdQRDgluR+EbLCeNJeO1E ODLQumQd89cmnuxIM7cliZ4xbF4IZy3qIFxFZHQ9VBbi0N+uvIGeZg8cpP/I2N1ohWQOal9QQ XPWM4oKgkHdFaKVMdfXnkoLOA2J3+bN57AoOEny0pOHzrucu3Lg0eicGdEieS0yRRuD0eMfhQ 30ut1fjewnnHq9NeFda+WE0cy2AFh+Vmk+uD8E8rtP/Zko3080z3gl4hTh/t/0/JKI3CBobij 0XCU+LvGArAqg7+HUQCujlgiwbA/Eh07oS83EmtV72RRHFZKJWfY/O8BbMbjYiGjw4/UcQ4+l 87to0dFm+bnNMWnmuYvx+k9r0tMT8rAfK9vWnHeevC0kdZ05xyJecJmgCr8t75KOeGVoBlGyF lb7SAYTbxpJWKIHGErcdPPnt4Ae+ap/XZ1WdMZdT2qX3CktGKm7huqiecKupeyaLVhyXvGhR2 w07LVLiXx/6HBv//3Tjg== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.15.4; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/16 18:55:58 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=web.de header.s=dbaedf251592 header.b=BcXzGady; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=web.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.81 X-TUID: mPHm2rwplDdb --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tim Cross writes: > There are only two mechanisms by which org-mode is upgraded and as far > as I know, both require that the user either initiates the update or > turns on automatic updates. Your argument would be more compelling for > me if we were talking about updates which occur without user > intervention or control. In my case org is updated automatically. I use rolling release distros. There=E2=80=99s never a time when I say =E2=80=9Cnow I get all the new vers= ions, let=E2=80=99s look for breakage=E2=80=9D. > Change is inevitable and such changes will from time to time, break > things. Is breakage truly inevitable? Do fundamentals of org have to change? If some small detail changes in a convoluted setup I have, that=E2=80=99s something I can cope with. That there are packages that almost never break and packages that almost always break on update, but little in-between sounds like most breakage isn=E2=80=99t inevitable. Here=E2=80=99s the source for the statement: https://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ It makes my point much more succintly: =2D----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ When I'm updating a piece of software there's a good chance it's not because I'm specifically updating that program. I might be: =2D Moving to a new computer. =2D Running a "$PACKAGE_MANAGER update" command. =2D Moving a website to a bigger VPS and reinstalling all the libraries. In those cases (and many others) I'm not reading the release notes for a specific program or library. I'm not going to find out about the brokenness until I try to use the program the next time. =2D----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------=20 and a second point: =2D----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------=20 This may just be an artifact of how my brain is wired, but I actually get a sense of satisfaction from writing code that bridges the gap between older versions and new. I can almost hear a little voice in my head saying: "Mwahaha, I'll slip this refactoring past them and they'll never even know it happened!" Maybe it's just me, but I think that "glue" code can be clever and beautiful in its own right. It may not bring a smile to anyone's face like a shiny new feature, but it prevents many frowns instead, and preventing a frown makes the world a happier place just as much as creating a smile! =2D----- ------ ------ ------ ------ ------=20 > With respect to the current issue about line indentation. I think the > key question here is was communication of this change sufficient and if > not, what can be done to make such communication more effective. It cannot be made effective enough. If you make it effective enough, the other gazillion packages on the system will use the same mechanism and that will make it ineffective again. The only way that works is to avoid breakage on update =E2=80=94 except for= the few cases where it is truly unavoidable. We have the discussion here, because many people disagree with the notion that the current breakage was unavoidable. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl+zFTwQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD67UnEADZemXPSqpGOLiWehXnWhmRP3IhpQZbevVK mUpAEDgWyukkZyQrMqQgj1KtwHcMhrH/6D0ha9HDIThMwiXLYM5FDy8jPW3/VJnX T0AiKA5QYG68y3VKZvlLiSw2Z/pwl2ew6+QnI8P8oCamy+8Iax9xLoXglLeA/HdG QGmG2EIEzZScgnmrIXgKQrS+/6Z+mIJFsDt1LM9kysZlByWSE+IObkE5HVLphp9t 7pyiaT3M85gRV1grsgVU5i2pUAX+2x1oGEIoJ9tp6JjA0sggSmmiZaD1H8+Y4NKn n5koKEOLO6CQYk6TG+fZyGCxGDx13597DEjM8a27GEjC6jLbeFrKY0xGHH+C+FoW GVQzxUe7LkZBt0ng+4O30yt+2IYOhGLPQuKp7E7yD+dDVBTITv4kHRISUgOl8I4Y RTCjNOIyaI4hwJevGF3Lz/TTRUiK1S+ivIbhI0whIAlw0bHnuK/qjCrbQfj7ekxB 7Gt2la3WC5SVvlipTS0QJUR0CHRnVNoc35fretNcByO8xMopmxoT7+QwLnQGZITO 7mtbbtVDdRsXwhAYjur7poAqYRN9W2fND3Wb4RUILu/00NMac0h3JauHm0TGEMQy 5O+kePRTgxgtsXGZkGRQwYsdzydjZOrpvq+ZStV2SFbzQMjNOzavBWeHF+k56unW b6c8jY0D/ojEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAl+zFTwQHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSIriA/9Lx+eFnAKhjVLGSy19rMnS8WNa zw/MJyfbMJRWf5OFgs7s9aIOzri7vzbodarMoN8pTWpKM0zxKbWNglED0Bw92iml /4lS73aPZnVa/VfnEiSBuIX2qjVSFmbA+GMLB4LRxezZ0wY9lf3v8hlNcZ1B5M37 aLWtAICJgK/4GqKtKg== =y+Ut -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--