From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id YAJnGOqUs18DNQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:16:26 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id KAkzFOqUs19wagAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:16:26 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6E58940538 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:16:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:60232 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kex67-0000N5-68 for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 04:16:23 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44166) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kex5B-0000Mt-NK for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 04:15:26 -0500 Received: from static.214.254.202.116.clients.your-server.de ([116.202.254.214]:55688 helo=ciao.gmane.io) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kex59-00054p-Ol for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 04:15:25 -0500 Received: from list by ciao.gmane.io with local (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kex54-0002Da-9N for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:15:18 +0100 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org From: "Loris Bennett" Subject: Re: Changed list indentation behavior: how to revert? Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:15:10 +0100 Message-ID: <87h7poibtt.fsf@hornfels.zedat.fu-berlin.de> References: <2020-11-13T18-23-43@devnull.Karl-Voit.at> <874klqew77.fsf@web.de> <20201115122154.50ad1503@linux-h0yu.fritz.box> <87tutq67ka.fsf@gmail.com> <87tutpvppm.fsf@kyleam.com> <871rgtwzrs.fsf@web.de> <87y2j1ahqf.fsf@gmail.com> <87v9e5uw2u.fsf@web.de> <87sg999g13.fsf@gmail.com> <87k0ukvotx.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.1 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:fEly6f/AoOqFeLWfj0SeiMwEbLs= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=116.202.254.214; envelope-from=geo-emacs-orgmode@m.gmane-mx.org; helo=ciao.gmane.io X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/17 02:20:02 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -15 X-Spam_score: -1.6 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Scanner: ns3122888.ip-94-23-21.eu Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=emacs-orgmode-bounces@gnu.org X-Spam-Score: 0.49 X-TUID: O+D2re5NsFrr Stefan Nobis writes: > "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" writes: > >> Sad story short:... > > I'm with you - last weekend I upgrade my OS and had quite some trouble > to get everything working again and still have some nasty hoops to > jump through. > > But on the other side: What are we talking about? > > Org had a given default configuration for quite some time. To be > clear: THIS DID NOT CHANGE! > > But some people are upset now. Why? Because the emergent behaviour > changed. Not the underlying default configuration, but in the context > and details of how each individual uses Org for some users the default > configuration was emergent and evident, but some other users did not > perceive this default configuration. > > Now a simple setting, syncing Org with the defaults of Emacs and other > modes with respect to RET and electric-indent-mode, make the OLD, > UNCHANGED default configuration emergent for almost all users. > > These are very subtle effects inside a very complex environment. > > How should maintainers be able to foresee all possible environments > and use cases and the resulting emergent behaviour? > > I'm really surprised that such a simple and insignificant breaking > change results in such a uproar. If a new Org version make all old > files completely unusable or a bunch of important features is totally > broken, say nothing of babel works anymore - yes, is such a case I > would understand the uproar. > > But ranting so loudly and insistent and continuously over such a minor > details is really beyond me. > > And nobody has to read all NEWS and Changelogs for every single peace > of software they are using. If nothing breaks maybe there is nothing > to worry about. If some minor detail like the new emergent indentation > behaviour annoys you - just have a quick look in the NEWS file of the > new version. Is this really that hard? > > On the other hand: What's the alternative? Never change anything > again? Maybe some users rely on the emergent behaviour of some bad > bug (that has bad consequences for some other users). Should it never > be changed, because it may annoy some users and they could be forced > to read the NEWS file? > > You cannot have the cookie and eat it! > > So, everyone, please calm down and try not to overreact over really > simple, negligible details. To quote Randall Munroe: "Every change breaks someone's workflow"[1] Footnotes: [1] https://xkcd.com/1172/ -- This signature is currently under construction.