From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id aOUXCQhmNGPU1QAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:19:36 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id sEoaCQhmNGOZzQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:19:36 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B75337324 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:19:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:47130 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1odYqU-0003CV-SM for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 11:19:34 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48378) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1odYm0-00039b-1F for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 11:14:56 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de ([185.67.36.66]:37533) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1odYlu-0005Vx-GA for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 11:14:53 -0400 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B11CC240101 for ; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:14:43 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1664378085; bh=wWw6y7PvsTet/z1HmIByawFsxrVexyuhfD44nGf6cG8=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=EHThniGFWv6b7Lf/8KK0EtxbJHLcHSFxlwDURZ+W/yLwPBnXPqvuFazm9C3DPbXfz C7YHpF22p9G3pK33vxYcZDO1fGA3vr8j1dY3t4gHOgLtTtY542bV0A+nc9QU+jWpTs koyWG6JA9jTkINSqAOGyF6h4LpHaXjMIlT3USIYRZhh5Se0PCkQHTAY/ljKwBeUeVZ V2ORgYAkOVCyf7DhfRGyYuixBi9QCrzLc6zdbqpU/NTI+ukZXbwg9u6IO8W1ZM8KDA 0Jq/fSVFvE5z4ua4dmQHQq9lJALusuFX+aQKQ4QE98oM/8w9s4J2WMIRaEOBm9YT8k 4sZpJ7iHvqv0w== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4Md0Qp47gGz6tmK; Wed, 28 Sep 2022 17:14:42 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?Q?Juan_Manuel_Mac=C3=ADas?= To: Hendursaga Cc: orgmode Subject: Re: Create in Org a bilingual book with facing pages References: <87h70tyyiz.fsf@posteo.net> <87zgeku66t.fsf@aol.com> <874jwsauv6.fsf@posteo.net> <87zgejr3gg.fsf@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2022 15:14:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: <87zgejr3gg.fsf@aol.com> (hendursaga@aol.com's message of "Wed, 28 Sep 2022 10:14:23 -0400") Message-ID: <87h70ra5un.fsf@posteo.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.66; envelope-from=maciaschain@posteo.net; helo=mout02.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -43 X-Spam_score: -4.4 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1664378375; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=eMhBntudSFpNv7VrfEEjy2t0io2z3XDFJn05lZ9dZcc=; b=XXQnH/NdJtt7WeTS8H2WZivOkvu6/8d2FcJymxVpIsYNPC3NRnXhF6ssjVzdHm3cY9Eq91 XsAX+WDW4/XU7Wsv07K4Du3/oi/nK5Hqm6Vd1497HrZWqcwxa6C8TmHq+H8EfDKgZY4XsG +eQe/7LZyaMGb0zmV3G0zJoJM3rC3FKa7WHwS/HcdVzZelcaKYiBvJ6s+mR/tVKfW7NSeI wL5rTWMmb9rtdFj+OFvHsoURvK/c8cpxwuRgXgD+SY4SDK9CxQlkaVYt2641mCmnHOSSAo Rv4oLhf+SZDV/6/2eCVuqp1kWbUADsTLwreGv8UC4Q+ySA5dt/P24z2gswCCXA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1664378375; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=TaNuhTyvXpwvPn/stpn+HjWhGP7ZO/T1CGN45dK9wGx6GRTtkvp5RKtEzlBN5nFbQnHXXQ q9Stmt4uXh8bEzHty4sGPiexDYjUdCPbH+Q3exZ7heD1Eo1OPY2s8VKAsjoQIWvvUlbjKO nUJUYXGRhWluwQI01ZYhHZINIfAF0cvwSicelT+Ad5t15nwvjQT+pzNfnTSHsC0JFdGPhB ie5SnkmIgKNrHmPKPuVfUxlAIHORNSWfMjQDSLRx3XyYJfprJ4BmXWO70M8v1nLfDrzqfI ztC5MFpF9zlGHd8wkJ2O7Z7vfUDjMdyKTvb3P8iSzzLoXW9zWP2WccFFkV3/og== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=EHThniGF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.05 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=EHThniGF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B75337324 X-Spam-Score: -4.05 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: FSZkmtSfoerp Hendursaga writes: > I'll look through that page sometime! As for your favorites, I already > have some of them on my lists, but I'll look at the others! There are also the Renaissance editions, especially those by Aldo Manuzio or Robert Estienne, which are true works of art. One of my free time projects is trying to reproduce with LuaTeX an edition of Aldo Manuzio (including the imperfections), but since I have less and less free time in my life it is a project that is on the dead track indefinitely :-) > Have you done any works that are parallel / bilingual that parallel, > paracol, or whatnot would probably be sufficient? When I have tried to do something in real production with these packages I have always had some problem. But I have done many tests with less complex text and they do not work badly. Especially paracol, which is based on multicol. >> [...] For critical editions (among other text types for Humanities), >> the standard for storing textual data is TEI >> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_Encoding_Initiative). The >> problem with TEI (at least for me) is that it consists of XML, and I >> hate XML :-). In this regard, I think that a lightweight markup >> language as powerful as Org could be a good alternative to TEI. And >> Org is indeed human-readable. One could even think of a possible Org >> backend for TEI... > > I also hate XML, but that's mostly when aiming for 100% compliance. A > lot of features I really don't care for, and I really think the > namespacing could've been much simpler, but with a superior editor > like Emacs or perhaps a specialized one, I'd like to think much of the > chore of TEI goes away.. Yeah, TEI has become, whether we like it or not, the standard for the transmission of texts in the digital Humanities. Certainly a TEI-mode for Emacs, or even a TEI backend for Org would be two wonderful things if they existed. But I imagine it would also be a tremendous job to make them exist :-) > Question: have you looked at other (open-source) typesetting engines > besides the TeX family? Like, say, *roff? In some ways, I prefer > groff's way to TeX, but it being a much smaller community, with a much > smaller ecosystem, gets in the way.. I did something with *roff, but it was a long time ago and nothing worth remembering. I know *roff still has fans, and I remember seeing a version out there that incorporates TeX's line break algorithms and has support for opentype features. A kind of TeXroff, from what I understand. Most of my "typographical life" has revolved around TeX. But I entered the world of TeX not through a standard TeX but through Omega, which was an experimental version of TeX with Unicode support and a lot of very sophisticated features, some of which not even LuaTeX has now by the way, LuaTeX has taken a lot of ideas from Omega). Omega was fascinating, but a horror to use. To install a TrueType font you had to go through a few processes. Before using exclusively free software, I also used Adobe Indesign quite a bit, and know it reasonably well. In fact InDesign has also borrowed a lot from TeX. Lately there have been some very interesting (and open source) projects of new typesetting systems based on TeX but more modern. Among them, I am very attracted to SILE (https://sile-typesetter.org/), and I have played quite a lot with this system. It is written entirely in Lua and supports multithreading. But this and other new projects have one major problem (IMO): LaTeX. Or, rather, the absence of LaTeX. TeX and any other typesetting system based on it is unusable as such. Its primitives are a series of basic physical processes on the page. The good news is that Knuth made TeX extensible (like Emacs) to be used through a 'format'. And LaTeX format, with its vast repertoire of macro packages, has made TeX usable by a huge range of users. All those macro packages are a job already done that nobody is going to be willing to do it again. Therefore, I believe that any new typesetting system that is not (in some way) compatible with LaTeX will unfortunately be doomed. The alternative is that something modular and monolithic like ConTeXt might emerge, but not with the richness and variety (sometimes excessive, admittedly) of LaTeX. Best regards, Juan Manuel