From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id sNoYLyvNqmN/cAEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 11:47:07 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id wHEwLyvNqmPangAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 11:47:07 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BE1AA886 for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 11:47:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pA7TZ-0004lq-Ov; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 05:46:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pA7TX-0004lh-OH for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 05:46:27 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pA7TU-0000Rr-MS for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 05:46:27 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58E70240137 for ; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 11:46:22 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1672137982; bh=FllYDmT4euYmRz4sVhuZ8DPX12SK884as0ceOZiy964=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=Bhf6O+IBrpmKlzEtfj3veQwBCdwkVVYXILmt0ybO+IkPZ3KhRFw4YZf7qBkXakkc2 sDsC8xm1QYuR/asfkqIn6cA3HEEKELEsNmMFhcSIal8Besl0GxcKSTRPISieMWrPqH 7UjemM6APOmPv5CPLWE9AlHjP2QrZnL8SqRBT/NFHhsnRJSEQlVpRo3lMNNSzv/o82 wYBaM+79ko2EsUAjWoHPzOAwCzy4c06GClbNOgE3bF6PIRDRwvLFNBZBqQJYbo8H9N ZIX48YJO5q/35WcsrT4xVmFbo3BreoUuBT8HZAP6mrluPfvc2uhyzrasUpirMWHOhB BFCv8fLCGV4yg== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4NhBCZ5601z6tnC; Tue, 27 Dec 2022 11:46:18 +0100 (CET) From: Ihor Radchenko To: Jean Louis Cc: andre duarte bueno , emacs-orgmode@gnu.org Subject: Re: Export Org with Org concept -- Re: Problems with C-c C-e file.org, In-Reply-To: References: <878rj469sk.fsf@localhost> <87a63bsn53.fsf@localhost> <87fsd2qy4e.fsf@localhost> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2022 10:46:11 +0000 Message-ID: <87h6xh2kgc.fsf@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.67.36.65; envelope-from=yantar92@posteo.net; helo=mout01.posteo.de X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, GAPPY_SUBJECT=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1672138027; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=lHUR2nFPk6J3cA854dUxAQrve3HUwAVDx5AJKtvgoFg=; b=ZuQ2vdLe1RrfSOrxafZGDVZZABGqRdqMIVrwap1IoKWLVSaPpwnlo0k4dXg0VSReSaG3sz MXxhzVMuF8XeGZVMTlTt0tVph8p38zCTPmt7dI+6mONKEv0SarVAqIuO3pbZXGLt4lWFrG aVE7pkeLWwfqdXIXXiwBl0fdCsy16JLrDbYCT5XIWptdonvUJA48j/PnQlaIM/hBXiyxur bRFc3k3g4clGL8yy/nTUTTgitWYEBV7MTaNB6PaTYpP5WdwHIhiyJCr0gMPCcNKxeeXZZ+ chYGRsKZybLq3RUA42OF3QB3W9azp0zJQkqnd0+WlKwGfIYr90VTqCsALDrRPw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=Bhf6O+IB; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1672138027; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=F6SKSSCnSsPZiv0kGR/tiOyS0As+yrLowFKjP3MKACd0DhRguEGpvSnoDzHMiY1AA6BhAl gAiU8IItGo1Ekl5TFMvP17UO3hqNaYFVCMP6lYtRQoLFlCDVv8+NFa16Nh2fX41jpDZMgy RpiWW7wVtC3laa0cJjlwmIKezILLeJ6E+ti5izfJ8K7v7cV4tZPq656bDBM9g6AA6TnHGT 94L5we+b6jZGL9Xqc32o+701NubDg0qSZ9rLKcSCUTssFmgmNE3tbfbPihCzPYZDsJVB/q tjOmKDfd937lq9hgvh7yGljLvjnvHXbAzx/SCbqdILpEzfGA9mIWaCf12Cz04w== X-Spam-Score: -3.97 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4BE1AA886 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=posteo.net header.s=2017 header.b=Bhf6O+IB; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="emacs-orgmode-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=posteo.net X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.97 X-TUID: +SRs8aTAWN9N Jean Louis writes: > If you mean formatting of the text, how it looks like, then retain > formatting of text. That is choice. That is not part of the offered > concept. Yes, that's what I was referring to. I am not against non-blocking interface per se. > QUESTION: Should I now add the ordinary layout and keybindings and > show you how it works? It will be a good first step forward, yes. If we move in this direction, we will need to find some way to replace all the menus, like agenda menu, attach menu, clock menu, capture menu, export menu, tag menu, etc. We have one shared interface in `org-mks', which might be tweaked a starting point. > From your side I expect that you tell me how do you use Org functions > to discover new exports as to see how to automatically include such. For export menu, the relevant function is `org-export--dispatch-ui'. > You have defined constraints to be the formatting (layout) and key > bindings. > > Is there anything else? I don't think so. The basic idea is to not break workflows that worked in the past. > I believe there is something in org that recognizes various export > options and implements menu, is it? Mostly a collection of ad-hoc code all across Org. See the above. >> In the video, you are using Org mode commands inside menu, which is a >> new concept for me. > > I can't understand what you mean. Which Org mode command do you mean? > > Is it on this first video: > https://gnu.support/files/emacs/packages/rcd-org-export/2022-12-19-23:36:10.ogv Here. on the menus toggling the checklist. The approach used in the existing menus is entering a dedicated key or key sequence to select/unselect options. > Regarding formatting: I don't think that formatting and layouts were > pretty dependant on the interface in the manner how it began in past, > and then programmers kept using that concept for the sake of the > interface, not for sake of users. If you are bound to foundation > lacking usability, of course programmers must stick to that > foundation. However, that does not help users become swift in > exporting. And thus it is not bad to escape the formatting for > something better. You may be right, but, as stated in the article I referenced, "I won't lecture you [the user] on why the new experience is better." If you think that we need to throw that existing approach away completely and use the one you proposed, I'd suggest implementing the better menu framework as independent package instead, allow plugging it into Org, and then maybe switch to it in future if many users use the alternative framework instead of the default one. Combining the two is better though. IMHO. -- Ihor Radchenko // yantar92, Org mode contributor, Learn more about Org mode at . Support Org development at , or support my work at