From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Tim Cross Subject: Re: [POLL] Should Org tempo be enabled by default? (expand templates thru e.g. " References: <87lgd671k7.fsf@bzg.fr> <87o9i2p9qq.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <87k1sq6znz.fsf@bzg.fr> <871seyp6fr.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> <874lju6tap.fsf@bzg.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:34034) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCunF-0004bm-Go for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:27:42 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fCunE-00010K-7X for emacs-orgmode@gnu.org; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 18:27:41 -0400 In-reply-to: <874lju6tap.fsf@bzg.fr> List-Id: "General discussions about Org-mode." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-orgmode-bounces+geo-emacs-orgmode=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Emacs-orgmode" To: Bastien Cc: emacs-orgmode@gnu.org, Nicolas Goaziou Bastien writes: > Hi Nicolas, > > Nicolas Goaziou writes: > >> Bastien writes: >> >>> Again, I may be wrong in thinking disabling this will cause trouble to >>> many users. Let's just take a moment to see what users think. >> >> It will case trouble during the time necessary to read ORG-NEWS >> incompatible changes section or ask the mailing list, and then adding >> (require 'org-tempo) to their configuration file. > > I wish I'd be as optimistic as you are and assume every user reads > ORG-NEWS! I seriously doubt a majority of users do. Those installing > Org from ELPA cannot possibly know where to find ORG-NEWS, Org gives > no indication where it lives: IOW, it's not even because users are > lazy or what. > >> It seems nonsensical to let Org handle expansion templates. Dedicated >> packages do it way better than what we provide, and the task is really >> out of our scope. > > I can't remember anybody complaining Org's expansion mechanism. > >> Worse, we would provide two different ways to expand blocks /by >> default/. > > I see it differently. You and Rasmus (and those participating to the > discussion) cleanly separated two functionalities: one is to *insert* > templates the other one is to *expand* them. > > M-x org-insert-structure-template RET is good for discovery as it lets > users see what templates are availables and <[KEY][TAB] is good for > fast inline expansion. > > Both complete each other IMO, and both deserve to be in Org's core. > > But again, I might be wrong, I just don't want this to be a discussion > between us two :) The problem here is two competing objectives. I agree with Nicholas' position that overall, org should not reproduce/re-invent/duplicate functionality already provided by Emacs or well established Emacs packages like ysnippets etc. On the other hand, Bastien's concern regarding impact on users and basic change management concerns are very valid. There is no solution which will make everyone happy. However, as a long term org user who hopes to continue using org for many more years, I tend to come down on the side of whatever will make org easier to maintain in the long term. I think org itself should provide a very stable core and avoid incorporating too many add on enhancements. It should be as stable as possible to encourage others to develop and maintain such enhancements and extensions. So while some of the changes Nicholas has proposed may have some short term inconvenience, I agree with his approach and I agree that if we enable org-tempo by default, we are unlikely to see people switch and org-tempo will end up being another module needing to be maintained as part of core. While the switch will be a little inconvenient for me while I learn to re-train my fingers, I think what I'm really doing is undoing a bad habit learned because of the original '